waiwai 于 2001/08/28 14:55:23 发表在 汉英
依稀记得它出于一句更长一点的话,意思如:
"授人以鱼只救一时之急,授人以渔则解一生之需."
如已有固定英译也请一并告知.先谢谢了.
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Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you will feed him for a lifetime.
作者(Author)：Yeti - 2001/08/28 16:09:40
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Once source I came across claimed the quotation is from Lao Tzu. Is that true ?
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/l/q121559.html
链接(Link)： Fish
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会不会是“救急不救穷”的反说？
作者(Author)：古月 - 2001/08/28 23:31:12
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Yeti转来的英文版倒是常听老外引用。袭用中文版的现在也多起来了，但说法五花八门，也见过“授人鱼，供一餐之用；授人渔，则享用不尽”的版本。引者几乎都以“古人云”、“古人说”、“有句老古话”开头，有的甚至用“老外说中国有句古话”等等。这是世界金玉良言公司的诸多悬案之一。大家传，大家用，很有创意，极富哲理。既然人人都说这是“中国智慧”，中国学者自然当仁不让，究竟是“出口转内销”还是“盗版”“赝品”，也管不了那么多了。典出何处？很可能只有圣母知道:-)
网上什么“Confucius says, "May you live in interesting times!”，“There's a Chinese proverb, "Don't take off your pants when having sex.”一类真真假假的中国古话多如牛毛，无法一一考证。有的跟本就是老外信口开河，为增强效果，将自编的俏皮话安到中国哲人头上。恰巧碰到个编得妙一点的，象“鱼渔”者，便传开了。传到中国，经高人这么一翻，还挺地道的。如此高质量的格言，谁愿拒收？就此约定俗成为“中国古话”也是顺理成章的。
不过中国倒是有“救急不救穷”的说法，那倒是很“中国”的。“鱼渔”句很象是“救急不救穷”的反说，加进了形象比喻，反译成中文后就成了如今各种版本的“中国古话”。不过这也只是一种推断，不必当真。
不妨通过下面的链接先去看看此间网友以前就类似问题展开的讨论。
链接(Link)："May you live in interesting times" 是哪个汉语成语的英译？
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临渊羡鱼，不如退而结网？
作者(Author)：S.H - 2001/08/29 03:39:51
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感觉上，这句谚语与您所说的相似。
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来源不详
作者(Author)：民办 - 2001/08/29 05:05:32
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１、中国格言：
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Chinese proverb. The International Thesaurus of Quotations, ed. Rhoda Thomas Tripp, p. 76, no. 3 (1970).
(http://www.chemistrycoach.com/fish_fishing_and_education.htm)
２、老子：
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. - Lao-Tzu
(http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5952/unquote.html)
３、孔子：
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. - Confucius
(http://www.ineedcoffee.com/99/11/teach/)
５、管仲：
Contrasting the virtuous leadership of Guan Zhong with the petty leadership of Zi Chan and Zi Xi. Incidentally, Guan Zhong, a.k.a. Guan Zi, is occasionally credited as the coiner of the phrase, "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; teach him to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime," though I haven't been able to verify the authenticity of it (frankly, it's always sounded rather 20th century to me).
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/confucius-list/message/690)
５、外国人说过类似的话：
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day. Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.
--Timothy Jones
(http://www.ropnet.ru/mylene/quot/quot2.htm)
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A variant that I have heard had the second part as : "Give a man a hook...."
作者(Author)：Yeti - 2001/08/29 10:04:11
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(i) To: 民办, May I use your quotes. (ii) To all : Need some info in general
作者(Author)：Yeti - 2001/08/29 12:11:05
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(I) Hi there, 民办, if you don't mind, I would like to use your materials you quoted (re: different possible sources
of "give a man a fish..." on an article I am writing on Chinese proverbs.
(2) I need some information on
(i) In the fable " Man not contented, snake swollowed elephant", which internal organ of the serpent
did Jiang ( Chang ?, Chung ? ) need to cut to make medicine for his mother ? Was it the bladder
or the liver ?
(ii) In "Man waiting by a tree for a rabbit to hit again", was it a tree or a bush ? Any particular
name for (tzu) in English ?
(I am writing a short article about the origin of some "interesting Chinese expressions.")
Thanks.
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(2)(i) originally not specified (ii) rather "stump" or "stub"
作者(Author)：lsne - 2001/08/29 13:40:53
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(2)
(i) The original story should be from 山海经·海内南经：
巴蛇食象，三岁而出其骨。君子服之，无心腹之疾。
It could be the whole body (meat), alcoholic extract, as well as the gall bladder.
There could have been various versions derived from this, and it is always true that the later, the more detailed. But I don't know any of them
(ii) I would say in 守株待兔, 株 stands for the tree stump or stub, since it is found in 田. The story is found in 韩非子·五蠢
宋人有耕者。田中有株。兔走触株，折颈而死。 因释其耒
而守株，冀复得兔。兔不可得得，而身为宋国笑。
You don't have big trees in the farmland to compete for the sunlight with crops. And the rabbit is less likely to ignore a tree and cause the tradegy.
From an environmentalist's view, this is an indication that the deforestation in favor of farming as a practice has a history as long as the earliest expansion of human activities. Otherwise we don't see stumps in farmlands. :-)
A seperate note on 授人以鱼不如授人以渔. I think it could very well be of Chinese origins even we had failed to find out any ancient literature till now, judging from its philosophy, its wording and its popularity. But it is almost sure that it couldn't be of pre-Qin 先秦。 So its first author could not have been Confucius, Guan Zi, Zhuang Zi.
The various forms suggest there could have been more than one author, each made his adaptation. The style, on the other hand, appears to be very close to 家训，格言 etc.
It should also be pointed out, IMHO, that the variant quotations cited by 民办 and Uncle Yeti under the authorship of foreigners are clearly later adaptations or deliberate imitations of their precedents and should not be considered as part of the possible multiple origins. We often do such modifications to well known proverbs, with every kind of purpose.
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Thanks. Tree stump makes a lot of sense and so tree stump it is.
作者(Author)：Yeti - 2001/08/29 15:54:56
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The quotes are from the Internet and should be free for all.
作者(Author)：民办 - 2001/08/30 07:42:25
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是用www.google.com找到的，不是我写的。
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(i)I do not want to take credit for finding them. (ii) Re: Your #5
作者(Author)：Yeti - 2001/08/31 22:57:18
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At any rate, I sent the link to that message to the fellow I know who likes
to say "Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day, give him a hook and
he will eat for life." ( Provided he knows how to use the hook properly :-) !)
As to your #5, may be Mr.Jones has never heard of "God help
(only) those who help themselves."
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人心不足蛇吞象：The more you have, the more you want.
作者(Author)：成语 - 2001/09/06 23:55:02
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谢诸位!
作者(Author)：waiwai - 2001/08/29 12:47:55
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Yeti提供英译是我导师爱用的引文,我想最接近的就是“授人以鱼不如授人以渔”。虽然古月的“救急不救穷”的意思很接近,但引文是用于教育理论,还是鱼渔的说法贴切些。
曾在学校的东亚图书馆泡了半天，有一本名言集说是管仲说的，但遍查〈管子〉也不见其原文，也许是后人托说的。
另外本校新开了一幢楼，号称Integrated Teaching and Learning,用了另一句Chinese Proverb为座右铭：
“I hear ... I forget. I see ... I remember. I do ... I understand”
这楼的特点是很多墙壁都是故意裸露的，为工学院的学生提供感性的学习机会。屡次被导师点名，
"We have a native speaker here to confirm the truth of this
Chinese proverb."
正如古月所说，这么高质量的智慧，人家给咱安上，却之不恭，每次都点头称是，大胆代表了一下五千年的灿烂。可晚上躺在床上总有一点“借光”的不安，总想“饮水思源”，找出这带给我荣光的先人。
依稀记得陶行之原名并非行之，因信奉“行而知之”的教育原则，易名为行之。是否两者有关联呢？而这“行而知之”是否也有出典？
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送君一条活鲫鱼：送人鱼，饱一顿；教人渔，益终身；来源：与时俱进的民间三字经:-)
作者(Author)：古月 - 2001/08/29 15:38:33
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一。上面推出“救急不救穷”不是为了取代“鱼渔”作为“fish/fishing”的对等版，而是为了跟您一道“饮水思源”，推测这句俗语的可能来源而已。俗话说“救急不救穷”，那是旧观念，现代提倡“不仅要救急，更要救穷”。为救燃眉之急而给穷人一点小恩小惠是不够的，要教给穷人致富的技术和知识，让他们自力更生摆脱贫困，这才是一劳永逸的办法。这种东西说得多了，人们会从中得到启发，从而衍生出种种其它说法。S.H提到的“临渊羡鱼不如退而织网”虽然意思不完全吻合，但作为衍生那种说法的另一种可能启迪也并非毫无道理。总之，“鱼渔”句即使追溯不到任何中国先人的头上，其始作俑者深受中国俗语影响的可能性还是很大的。因此，称之为中国智慧也不必心虚。
二。用“授人以鱼不如授人以渔”对译“fish/finshing”读上去应该没什么太大的理解问题。但是，它存在着下面几个缺憾：
1〕只能用作书面语，演讲时用它一点感染力也没有，非得增加个解释不可：“注意：前一个是没有三点水的鱼，而后一个是加了三点水的渔！”如果听众语文水平差一点，一时反应不过来，还得再补一句：“加三点水的渔就是抓鱼的本领！”看来选这种译文的人多半是不吃开口饭的。:-)
2〕“授”字给人以居高临下的感觉，并非任何场合都能用。比如说本帖标题，如果把“送君一条活鲫鱼”的“送”改成“授”，感觉如何？不如分别改成“送”和“教”，含意明确，口吻平直，容易分辨。
3〕文夹白，想冒充先人语录太难，一查便知有没有。
三。鉴于上述，本人倾向于将其译成三字诀：送人鱼，饱一顿；教人渔，益终身。
有一回，一位精通英汉双语的美国人提出Yeti转的那个英文版，问我的一位同窗，这是孔子还是老子说的，怎么说的。同窗想了想，觉得不象他们中任何一位的语录，问我，我也没听说过。只见那位机敏的同窗先以三字诀将其颂出，然后给了她一个说法：很可能源自民间流传的三字经。
哇！真佩服我那位同窗。反正三字经很多源自民间俗语，而且版本多种多样，前几年不是还出过“北京”和“广东”两个版本的新三字经吗！与时俱进，无懈可击，简直绝了！
谨此备案，以供参考！
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从他助到自助，顿顿有饭吃还得靠自己:-) God help those who help themselves!
作者(Author)：有道理！ - 2001/08/30 00:18:25
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《尚书》:“知之非艰，行之惟艰” ——> 儒家知行学说
作者(Author)：行而知之 - 2001/08/29 16:38:22
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Thanks for sharing! Very true indeed! For "it is a good divine that follows his own instructions".
作者(Author)：tian xin - 2001/08/29 17:04:01
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If to do were as easy as to know what were good to do, chapels had been churches, and poor men's cottages princes' palaces,- it is a good divine that follows his own instructions, I can easily teach twenty what were good to be done, than be one of the twenty to follow my own teaching...
-W. Shakespeare: Merchant of Venice
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a bit more on 行知 and 陶行知
作者(Author)：he zi - 2001/08/29 23:42:35
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上引《尚书》可说是主张“知易行难”罢；后来王阳明讲“知行合一”；孙中山先生提出“知难行易”。“知”“行”关系的讨论似乎永远在继续。几年前的大专辩论仿佛还辩过这个题目。
陶先生原名“文俊”（sorry, “俊”是白字）。因为信奉“知为行之始”，改名“知行”。后又认为“无行则无知”，复改“行知”。陶行知先生名言：“教师的职务，是‘千教万教，教人求真’，学生的职务，是‘千学万学，学做真人’”。一定会有人觉得它迂阔吧。即便认同，做起来也是难的。
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Informative and scholarly.
作者(Author)：tian xin - 2001/08/30 00:01:25
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原来只是模糊印象，现在更清楚了。多谢严谨学风 :)
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help
作者(Author)：charles - 2002/07/17 20:45:56
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i hear but i forget+i see and i remember
what's the chinese for this proverb?
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眼见为实，耳闻为虚
作者(Author)：古月 - 2002/07/30 19:49:14
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What I hear I forget
作者(Author)：legendinfall - 2004/04/20 23:08:12
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What I hear I forget, what I see I remember, what I do I understand.
这句话出自荀子《儒效篇》。
“不闻不若闻之，闻之不若见之，见之不若知之，知之不若行之；学至于行之而止矣。”
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interesting post
作者(Author)：jingle - 2003/07/16 00:34:14
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Hi there
I came across your lines when searching the "fish and fishing"..interesting stuff . interesting meditation.
good luck for the fishing
jingle
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