boring 于 2002/01/15 23:36:57 发表在 汉英
真佩服这小子的faculty
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 能写出这么长的story
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 更难得还能表述clearly
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 促使我重新再背vocabulary
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 今天又是一周末Friday,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺无处可去人也Lazy。
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 忽接邀请部长的Birthday
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺是第一回参加Party，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 精神颇紧张不很Easy ，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 举止也狼狈看着Funny,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 可是一看这么多LADY，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 心情舒畅马上就HAPPY。
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 美眉多来自俺们Ministry,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 虽然个别有点UGLY，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 有些还是一流BEAUTY，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 晃得俺的眼睛直DIZZY,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 从此认识了俺的Honey.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 这小丫乍看很是Lonely,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 冷冷呆坐墙角像Mummy，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 可是在俺眼中很Sexy，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 竟让俺冲动有点Horny.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 虽知爱情多半是Tragedy。
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 但俺不信总是不lucky，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺决定要把握这Opportunity
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺上前打招呼嗨Baby，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她眼不抬淡淡说busy.，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺不死心说俺是Celebrity ，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 这招果然能起点effectivity.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 小妞颇感兴趣问Really ?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺摆造型问像否Snoopy ?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她说切~ 那我是Kitty .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺忙说对对你很Lovely，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 咱俩心里牛角有harmony。
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她嘴一撇说你真Doggy。
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 这话让好脾气也Angry,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺气得眼睛差点smoky，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 还得陪笑说你真naughty.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她说男人我见过Many，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 你算是有意思不Dirty，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 而且笑容看起来Sunny，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 人应该有不错的personality.，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺猛一听差点又Dizzy，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 原来幸福来得如此Easy，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 感觉产生得这么Quickly
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 以至俺没反应样子Clumsy
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 小 て 哧笑你真Silly
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 象几辈子没见过Beauty.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 我才注意她头发frizzy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 红润的嘴唇赛过Cherry
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 会说话的眼睛真watery,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 最要命的是她还busty.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 整个人像是人间Fairy ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 无法形容是如此Pretty .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 虽然从外表看着Chilly,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 其实内心狂热很Hearty.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺想就算是情圣Kennedy
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 鹰鼻子也要马上Bloody .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺说俺有种心理Activity ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 不知是否该把它Display .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她似是有很强的Sensibility ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 说既然想了就该Say 。
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺忽然觉得大脑Empty ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 花言巧语全抛到Disney.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 最后呐呐俺有点Hungry,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 随手抓了块奶油Candy ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 塞嘴里然后自骂Idiocy！
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 看出俺的尴尬和Honesty,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她轻轻一笑满含Sincerity.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺意识到她是在Imply ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 顿时内心充满了Ecstasy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 鼓足勇气直面她Reply :
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 咱们虽同在一个City ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 今天相逢也实属Fortuity，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 但这是俺最大的Felicity.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺不会说话也不Crafty ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 上帝今天对俺特Mercy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 一见你俺就一阵Flurry ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 你让俺忧愁让俺Merry .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她沉默不语像尊Statuary，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 良久问真爱是否Luxury.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺毫不犹豫回答Certainly .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 小妞颇激动接着Query :
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 在这光怪陆离的Society ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 爱情早已蜕变为Commodity ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 若有资本尽情可Buy，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 女人沦为男人的Colony.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 小蜜因此可傍上Wealthy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 纯情注定成昨日History,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 最初心动被无情Bury。
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 人人都学会逃避Liability ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 街上流行的只是Betray.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 当感情成为快餐Berry,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 言行激情只能靠Copy ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 我们还能上哪找Eternity？
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺心有戚戚喝口Brandy ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 说即使有情人和Money,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 我们也经常只是Poverty .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 虽然仍然有足够Sanity ，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 也陷无可名状的Vanity .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 实在没有东西可Enjoy .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 感情不是馈赠或Charity ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 旧伤痕无法让人Sympathy ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 就算千般遗恨和Agony ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 只能当作上天的Penalty ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 一份不愿接受的Legacy.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 但俺保持爱情的Piety ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 纵使别人一千遍Copy ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 你可把蓝图心里Portray,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 将爱的真谛细致Embody ，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 你就会拥有幸福Family .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 小妞又问哪个更Necessary,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 女人的灵魂还是Body?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 这问题虽老套但Spicy ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺只能含糊回答Any.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 灵魂和思想应属Philosophy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 肉体是可触摸的Entity ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 缺哪样人生都不Plenty.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 女人是歌是书和Poetry,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 内容纸张都应高Quality.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 小妞说女人还是Library,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "就算你是美国会Library,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺也不怕高深和Difficulty"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 说实话俺是有点Gassy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她居然感动轻轻Cry.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺正感手足无措Worry ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 舞池响起一曲Love Story .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "这是我最喜爱的Melody."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺和她在人群中Eddy ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 感觉奇妙无比像Butterfly,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 全身轻飘要失去Gravity.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 最后离开喧闹的Lobby,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 转到清静无人的Balcony .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 月色如水天空是Starry，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她温情把俺胸膛Rely ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 握着她的手感觉Floppy.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 我们拥吻着都很Crazy.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她呢喃来吧I am ready ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺心旌摇荡浑身Fiery,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 不顾一切想把她Occupy .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 意乱情迷中俺太Hurry ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她似不胜痛楚的Entry,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 娇喘连连并低叫Slowly，
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 淹没在俺激情和Energy .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 风雨过后俺感觉Guilty ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 因为她原本如此Holy ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 是俺破坏了她的Chastity ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 无情剥夺了她的 Virginity .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺内心不安想说Sorry ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 她说我不是在乱Try ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 也非随心所欲想Play ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 我需要意中人来Accompany ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 你是个理想的好Buddy ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 谢谢你给我美好Memory.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 这就是俺的一夜Story ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 听起来像个奇妙Fantasy .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 却是真切发生的Reality .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺满脑仍是她的Effigy ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 俺想是真爱上这Genie ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 无边回忆中度过Everyday ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 想排 寂寞却No Way.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 只好把思念写进Diary .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 从此天天盼部长Birthday ,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 鸳梦重温把前缘Carry.
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跟贴目录 (List of Followups):
借地:终于做了初稿---请各位大虾看看我的英译文,谢谢
作者(Author)：Privacy Hunter - 2002/01/16 09:03:49
***
[还有8个小时就要交卷了,只好在线上看那位能帮帮忙了 :)) ]
山地城镇保护与利用的几点思考
提要: 本文对山地城镇保护与利用提出三个观点: (1)要处理好历史文化保护与城镇建设的关系; (2)要处理好历史文化保护与旅游发展的关系; (3)要科学规划,重点保护,抓住特色,重视文化. 同时特出当前需迫切解决的四个问题: (1)有价值的历史文化遗产尽快抢救; (2)修复与保护应有重点地选择; (3)重视对传统物质文化的发掘和利用;(4)要重视整体文化环境.并以四个实例说明.
Version 1.0:
The Preservation and Protection of Mountain townships
Abstract: This Article deliberates on the preservation, development and utilization of mountain townships and raises the following viewpoints:
1. The relationship between the preservation of historical relics and the development of the towns.
2.The relationship between the preservation of historical relics and the development of tourism.
3. The scientific planning of the development of mountain townships to preserve sites of historical importance and to highlight local culture.
The Article also points out the need to resolve the following issues:
1.The need to rescue relics of historical importance.
2. The repair and preservation of historical relics in accordinace with their importance.
3.The full utilization of traditional culture sites .
4. The development of mountain townships in line with the overall cultural environment.
Concrete examples are included to further illustrate the above mentioned viewpoints.
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粗改了一下。仅供参考。
作者(Author)：古月 - 2002/01/16 13:36:56
***
The Preservation and Development of Mountain townships
Abstract: This Article deliberates on the preservation, development and utilization of mountain townships and raises the following points:
1. The correlation between the preservation of historical relics and the development of towns.
2.The correlation between the preservation of historical relics and the development of tourism.
3. The rational development planning coupled with well-focused, locality-specific and culture-sensitive preservation.
The Article also proposes the need to address the following issues:
1.To salvage valuable historical relics without delay.
2.To restore and preserve historical sites in a focused and selective manner.
3.To attach importance to the excavation and use of historical relics.
4.To introduce a cross-cutting cultural-environmental perspective.
Concrete examples are included to illustrate the above mentioned points.
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another version
作者(Author)：didn't like [relic] per se - 2002/01/16 15:07:01
***
Conception thoughts on the preservation and development mountain townships
Abstract: This article deliberated on the preservation and development of mountain townships and advanced the following three arguments:
Firstly, that future urban development and construction should not be undertaken at the destruction of historical sites or traditional culture.
Secondly, that future tourism development should be pursued with the goal of preserving historical sites and traditional culture.
Thirdly/lastly, that each urban area should be developed and modernized under the scientific planning emphasizing its uniqueness. The key issues are to preserve all key historical sites and upholding the traditional cultural taste.
There are four pressing issues at the present stage that must be solved simultaneously:
1. A jump-start for the conservation of all worthwhile historical sites and traditional cultural heritage is needed.
2. Prioritization of conservation work.
3. Historical and traditional culture and heritage should be preserved to bring future positive impact on local economy.
4. A holistic approach toward total engagement of revived cultural environment should be adopted.
Here are four detailed illustrations.
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谢谢古月和田园等老师们的建议。给我帮助最大的不是得到了准确的译文，而是
作者(Author)：Privacy Hunter - 2002/01/16 18:48:16
***
而是通过对比自己与高手的版本，发现个中的无穷奥妙。正如论坛中题词所说：“Brain Storms”. 谢谢
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田园老师,收到您的小说,谢谢.再:能抽空看看我这里的译文吗?谢谢
作者(Author)：Privacy Hunter - 2002/01/16 10:57:38
***
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My version!
作者(Author)：田园居士 - 2002/01/16 14:19:31
***
Some Thoughts on the Preservation and Utilization of Mountain Townships
Abstract: This paper puts forward the following viewpoints on the preservation and utilization of mountain townships:
1. The relationship between the preservation of historical/cultural heritage and the township development shall be justified (or rationalized);
2.The relationship between the preservation of historical/cultural heritage and the tourism industry development shall be justified (or rationalized); and
3. Scientific township planning, high priority preservation, location-specific features and culture-oriented conceptions shall be enforced.
The paper also points out four issues which call for urgent solutions and illustrates them with four specific examples:
1. Salvage of valuable historical/cultural heritage;
2. High priority restoration and preservation;
3. High attention to the exploration and utilization of traditional material cultures; and
4. High attention to the overall cultural environment.
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Better strategies and a few suggestions
作者(Author)：crazy English guy - 2002/01/17 14:12:04
***
Strategy - step one:
Before jumping into this text, I would recommend skimming through the body of the article. This text is an abstract, and the contextual meaning of some of the terms and ideas can be properly established only by reading the exposition and argumentation in the article itself.
Strategy - step two:
Next, read some on-line articles on the same subject in English and find out what terms are actually used in idiomatic English to express the same ideas.
See, for example, the website of the International Centre for Integrated Mountain Development at http://www.icimod.org.sg/index.htm, and read a few of the papers there, like "Integrated Planning for Environment and Economic Development in Mountain Areas:
Concepts, Issues, and Approaches".
On to some more specific ideas:
山地城镇
Are these "townships"? The word sounds more like an administrative division than a description of a natural settlement. I would suggest that you read the whole article and consider choosing something like "communities", "village centres", "towns" or the like.
要处理好历史文化保护与城镇建设的关系
Sure, 处理好某种关系 has been "officially" translated as "properly handle the relationship between" since the days of Chairman Mao. This is quite understandable in English, but not very idiomatic.
Sorry, venerable Gu Yue, "correlation" does not belong here. Asserting that a correlation exists between "preservation" and development is illogical; more development clearly does not contribute to better conservation. Apart from being incoherent, this statement is not made in the Chinese text.
The author seems simply to be arguing that a balance should be struck between the need for conservation and the demands of development/urbanisation, which is a fairly banal observation. You would have to read the article to know exactly what he means, though.
"Relics" absolutely does not belong here. This term has been abused by the China Daily for years. English-speakers find it quite amusing. Apart from its religious sense, "relic" is pejorative and often humorous. Go to the website of any heritage department in a Western country and you will see that "relic" is not used this way in English. Better yet, search in Google for "relics" in combination with "protection" or similar keywords, and you will be directed to mostly Chinese government websites - zero in the US or the UK.
重视对传统物质文化的发掘和利用
This is a great example of why you need to read the text itself before you can make the correct translation decisions. It is impossible to disambiguate this segment without further context. This could well be referring to traditional indigenous technologies and their value in (sustainable) development.
要重视整体文化环境
"to introduce a cross-cutting cultural-environmental perspective"
Again, sorry, this is close to meaningless in English, and unidiomatic to boot. The only way to nail this one down is to read the article. If I had to guess, I would go with "integrated/holistic". In the absence of any context, the best you can do is try to come up with something plausible, idiomatic, and sufficiently vague, like "the need for a holistic strategy for the cultural environment" or "integrated approach to the management of the cultural landscape", etc.
实例
"Concrete examples" is certainly not wrong, but you should read the article and consider "case studies" if that is appropriate. "Concrete" is over-used in Chinese-English translation, so maybe I have become over-sensitive. English does tend to prefer the collocation "specific examples". Also, there is nothing wrong with "examples", without the word concrete.
Sorry, don't have time to offer a complete re-translation, and wouldn't dare anyway without having access to the actual article. Hope these ideas and well-intentioned criticisms will be of some use to put you on the right track.
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Yours is a convincing argument,
作者(Author)：thanks for your suggestions. - 2002/01/17 16:39:45
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"crazy English guy": 能留一下尊姓大名吗? 您的文笔似曾相识
作者(Author)：SALUT!!! - 2002/01/17 18:42:56
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urbanisation 一词揭示了您的English/British English background; disambiguate 一词揭示了您的career background.
Thanks for the nice write-up on the usage of "relic", yet another distinctively discordant word employed was "salvage", which denotes a certain shortsightedness rather than integrated, holistic or long-term planning well in advance (cf. "salvage archeology")
If I had to make a bold guess, do you usu. go by the name 学而? Again, I'm not positive on this. Anyway, in my opinion, you are one of the FEW guys who can really write nice English prose. SALUT!
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Hahaha..., your "near-native" judgment is getting increasingly questionable. No offence intended.@^@
作者(Author)：more of a critic - 2002/01/18 00:57:32
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Let me try again...
作者(Author)：似曾相识 - 2002/01/18 01:11:21
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链接(Link)：似曾相识
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您若能说出为什么Mr. Andrew Dawrant 的comment及修改反倒不如母语是汉语的"古月","XX居士","LH"之流,
作者(Author)：中外纪闻 - 2002/01/18 10:20:42
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颇愿执弟子礼, 否则便有失公允.
至于从Mr. Andrew Dawrant 的comment里看出其对待中文原文力求吃透的认真态度, 更是高出尔辈一筹, 这还在其次. 当然我理解被截止日期/时间苦苦相逼的痛苦, 所以根本没有suggest应把原文先通读一遍. 换言之, 如果中文原文的abstract对正文的总结不够精当, 那么不通读正文直接译出abstract的质量只好听天由命了.
[对原文领悟一般 + average English writing skills = excellent translation work], 这不是中外奇谈么?
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Again, you misunderstood me and put your own words into my mouth.
作者(Author)：似曾相识的critic - 2002/01/18 10:49:51
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I didn't pass judgment as to whom is a better translator. I questioned your "near-native" sense of language because you mistook the crazy English guy for 学而. That's all. No hard feelings. To make mean comments is not my style. Cheer up!
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你所说明并加以证实的正是本人一贯地不care作者名姓, 力求"以稿件内容质量取人"的求实criticism.
作者(Author)：不知不满从何而来 - 2002/01/18 17:38:19
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既然你不嘴硬强调母语是汉语的"古月","XX居士","LH"等人的修改或comment比Mr. Andrew Dawrant的更优秀, 那么我的原结论就应该成立.
如果您在学术观点上有保留, 不如拿出来亮个相("I didn't pass judgment"), 我绝对相信大部分人能"有容乃大"地正确对待, 毕竟学术观点上尖锐对立的帖子, 汉英论坛都以比以往更冷静思考的态度接受了, 那么处在尖锐对立中间的论调更是不必担心会有不必要的ad hominem 的人身攻击, 唯一的希冀是"观点鲜明, 论据充分(能做到客观公正或给人任何启发的更佳)".
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Not quite sure what you're talking about.
作者(Author)：no critic/driver comp - 2002/01/18 18:21:14
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I was merely following your curiosity: "If I had to make a bold guess, do you usu. go by the name 学而?" If you do a search/retrieval and compare their English writing, it should not be difficult to tell the difference with your intelligence and sense of language.
If you had not been so curious about his 尊姓大名 and if your "bold guess" had not touched on another netter, I wouldn't have done the search and comparison for you.
That's it! Nothing else. No hard feelings. Cheer up!
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我所"SALUT!!!"的是美文本身
作者(Author)：PMA - 2002/01/18 19:00:53
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作为auditor, 在正确评定文章高低并及时给予高度评价后, 工作业已完成(cf. "in my opinion, you are one of the FEW guys who can really write nice English prose. SALUT!"--这才是我的论述重点!! 以我之出名吝啬, 半年多来认定'汉英论坛'上能写一手漂亮英语(native like)的统共只有3家).
原贴是用笔名匿名发表, "索隐"非我之长(cf. "Again, I'm not positive on this."), 而您恰有detective之禀赋, 因此我提议您担当'汉英论坛'之考据组长(collator), 让您的专长发挥作用, 并更好地接受人民群众的监督.
Collator和auditor自是两个不同性质的工作, 特此说明.
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OK, I know the value of your judgment now. Cheers!
作者(Author)：smiling - 2002/01/18 19:25:00
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俺自然可以入“之流”，古老师和居士怎可？
作者(Author)：Last Hermit - 2002/01/18 10:56:21
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Meunique
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Reason: 他们的 prose English 很难 pass as native writers
作者(Author)：sorry, 犯忌了 - 2002/01/18 11:16:40
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Too much foreignism. 古老师和居士职业不同, 操英语写作的目的也不一样, 两人的style不同; 古老师的年龄40上下, 居士年轻些, potential自然大些.
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贴一首袁枚的小诗，希望大家喜欢！
作者(Author)：田园居士 - 2002/01/18 14:18:33
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爱好由来下笔难，一诗千改始心安。
阿婆还似初笄女，头未梳成不许看。
袁枚·遣兴
每次在汉英回贴时，总是对自己的译文考虑再三，但是永远做不到象袁枚那样不厌其烦一遍又一遍地修改他的作品。做翻译时总是有一种力不从心、绠短汲深的感觉。不知各位大师有无此感受？
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革命尚未成功,同志仍需努力.
作者(Author)：曲径通幽 - 2002/01/18 15:22:53
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贾政何尝喜欢过宝玉的尽心制作? 因为宝玉自己也承认"歌成馀意尚傍徨". 现在您的competitors实力也都不弱, 要次次博誉自然是难地, 好在你年轻, 不至于等到文字等各方面都"成熟了，水平高了，身体状况、精力却不是人生最佳阶段，继续发光发热的时间也不多了。"
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没关系的！言者无罪，闻者足戒。借鉴批评不必计较态度、遣词和动机。
作者(Author)：古月 - 2002/01/18 11:21:23
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他人的意见，乃至偏见，就象一面镜子，可借以反观自己本来看不到的东西；既使是扭曲形象的哈哈镜，至少也能博人一笑。积极面对，总能获益。
有高手前来督阵，是件好事。这说明此处越来越受到重视，对严谨治学、自强不息是一种不可多得的鞭策。确实令人振奋！
当然，千万不要因为他人的品头论足而畏首畏尾。更加积极踊跃地参与，及时伸出援手，勇敢拿出译文，接受他人审评，才是对各种批评最好的正面回答。如果谁的译法容易引来较多回应的话，那么他(她)更该常作贡献，才有利于网站的繁荣。
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meaningful 有容乃大 [尺长寸短寻常事, 兼蓄并容
作者(Author)：纳海川] - 2002/01/18 12:08:45
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前番有人争论"有容乃大", 焦点在于GOD, SAINT等笔名是否offensive, 愚以为和"有容乃大"完全偏题. 春秋是某大夫的名字用了一个罕用字, 意思是"臀部有黑痣",中国史书没有因此而摸去他的历史作用, 外国人里也没有因为 Saint John Chrysostom 的姓的原义是"金口" (金子 + 嘴巴)而得到任何便宜, 他的著作仍然是读者了了.
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摸去 should be 抹煞
作者(Author)： - 2002/01/18 12:10:16
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俺也引起了兴趣?荣幸.可惜有所误解.人品为主,笔名为次.
作者(Author)：有容乃大 - 2002/01/18 12:19:25
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焦点是下面这句结论:
这帮家伙其实都是些自大狂,自己没什么本事,还总爱踩乎别人,教训别人,以此掩盖自己的浅薄和无知.既然他们乞求"大肚容人",就容了它吧.
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替您顶过/了/着缸, 小费自然是不敢奢望地, 同样地因为你的所容乃是极广大的
作者(Author)：错认笔名非吾也 - 2002/01/18 12:49:48
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I thought you were inside rather than outside the melting pot.~)*
作者(Author)：有容乃大 - 2002/01/18 13:28:05
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哇, 连化人骨为清汤的万钟巨镬您都有啊? 请生路的明示! [上有高堂下嗷嗷, 殷殷待哺
作者(Author)：冀宽饶] - 2002/01/18 14:01:24
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Some tips: Myth of the Melting Pot
作者(Author)：有容乃大 - 2002/01/18 14:21:29
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Myth of the Melting Pot: America's Racial and Ethnic Divides
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One Nation, Indivisible: Is It History?
In Los Angeles, demographers see "white flight" beyond the suburbs and into rural areas.
(By Todd Bigelow for The Washington Post)
First in a series of occasional articles
By William Booth
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, February 22, 1998; Page A1
At the beginning of this century, as steamers poured into American ports, their steerages filled with European immigrants, a Jew from England named Israel Zangwill penned a play whose story line has long been forgotten, but whose central theme has not. His production was entitled "The Melting Pot" and its message still holds a tremendous power on the national imagination *C the promise that all immigrants can be transformed into Americans, a new alloy forged in a crucible of democracy, freedom and civic responsibility.
In 1908, when the play opened in Washington, the United States was in the middle of absorbing the largest influx of immigrants in its history *C Irish and Germans, followed by Italians and East Europeans, Catholics and Jews *C some 18 million new citizens between 1890 and 1920.
Today, the United States is experiencing its second great wave of immigration, a movement of people that has profound implications for a society that by tradition pays homage to its immigrant roots at the same time it confronts complex and deeply ingrained ethnic and racial divisions.
The immigrants of today come not from Europe but overwhelmingly from the still developing world of Asia and Latin America. The are driving a demographic shift so rapid that within the lifetimes of today's teenagers, no one ethnic group *C including whites of European descent *C will comprise a majority of the nation's population.
This shift, according to social historians, demographers and others studying the trends, will severely test the premise of the fabled melting pot, the idea, so central to national identity, that this country can transform people of every color and background into "one America."
Just as possible, they say, is that the nation will continue to fracture into many separate, disconnected communities with no shared sense of commonality or purpose. Or perhaps it will evolve into something in between, a pluralistic society that will hold on to some core ideas about citizenship and capitalism, but with little meaningful interaction among groups.
The demographic changes raise other questions about political and economic power. Will that power, now held disproportionately by whites, be shared in the new America? What will happen when Hispanics overtake blacks as the nation's single largest minority?
"I do not think that most Americans really understand the historic changes happening before their very eyes," said Peter Salins, an immigration scholar who is provost of the State Universities of New York. "What are we going to become? Who are we? How do the newcomers fit in *C and how do the natives handle it *C this is the great unknown."
This is the first of a series of articles examining the effects of the new demographics on American life. Over the next few months, other reports will focus on the impact on politics, jobs, and social institutions.
Fear of strangers, of course, is nothing new in American history. The last great immigration wave produced a bitter backlash, epitomized by the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 and the return, in the 1920s, of the Ku Klux Klan, which not only targeted blacks, but Catholics, Jews and immigrants as well.
But despite this strife, many historians argue that there was a greater consensus in the past on what it meant to be an American, a yearning for a common language and culture, and a desire *C encouraged, if not coerced by members of the dominant white Protestant culture *C to assimilate. Today, they say, there is more emphasis on preserving one's ethnic identity, of finding ways to highlight and defend one's cultural roots.
This century's huge wave of immigrants is attracted to large metropolitan areas like Los Angeles, above.
(By Todd Bigelow for The Washington Post)
Ethnic Segregation
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Even within gateway cities that give the outward appearance of being multicultural, there are sharp lines of ethnic segregation. When describing the ethnic diversity of a bellwether megacity such as Los Angeles, many residents speak soaringly of the great mosaic of many peoples. But the social scientists who look at the hard census data see something more complex.
James P. Allen, a cultural geographer at California State University-Northridge, suggests that while Los Angeles, as seen from an airplane, is a tremendously mixed society, on the ground, racial homogeneity and segregation are common.
This is not a new phenomenon; there have always been immigrant neighborhoods. Ben Franklin, an early proponent of making English the "official language," worried about close-knit German communities. Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-N.Y) described the lingering clannishness of Irish and other immigrant populations in New York in "Beyond the Melting Pot," a benchmark work from the 1960s that he wrote with Nathan Glazer.
But the persistance of ethnic enclaves and identification does not appear to be going away, and may not in a country that is now home to not a few distinct ethnic groups, but to dozens. Hispanics in Los Angeles, to take the dominant group in the nation's second largest city, are more segregated residentially in 1990 than they were 10 or 20 years ago, the census tracts show. Moreover, it is possible that what mixing of groups that does occur is only a temporary phenomenon as one ethnic group supplants another in the neighborhood.
If there is deep-seated ethnic segregation, it clearly extends to the American workplace. In many cities, researchers find sustained "ethnic niches" in the labor market. Because jobs are often a matter of whom one knows, the niches were enduring and remarkably resistant to outsiders.
In California, for example, Mexican immigrants are employed overwhelmingly as gardeners and domestics, in apparel and furniture manufacturing, and as cooks and food preparers. Koreans open small businesses. Filipinos become nurses and medical technicians. African Americans work in government jobs, an important niche that is increasingly being challenged by Hispanics who want in.
UCLA's Roger Waldinger and others have pointed to the creation, in cities of high immigration, of "dual economies."
For the affluent, which includes a disproportionate number of whites, the large labor pool provides them with a ready supply of gardeners, maids and nannies. For businesses in need of cheap manpower, the same is true. Yet there are fewer "transitional" jobs *C the blue-collar work that helped Italian and Irish immigrants move up the economic ladder *C to help newcomers or their children on their way to the jobs requiring advanced technical or professional skills that now dominate the upper tier of the economy.
Hyphenated Americans
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One study of the children of immigrants, conducted six years ago among young Haitians, Cubans, West Indians, Mexican and Vietnamese in South Florida and Southern California, suggests the parents are not alone in their concerns.
Asked by researchers Alejandro Portes and Ruben Rumbauthow how they identified themselves, most chose categories of hyphenated Americans. Few choose "American" as their identity.
Then there was this *C asked if they believe the United States in the best country in the world, most of the youngsters answered: no.
? Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company
链接(Link)：Myth of the Melting Pot: America's Racial and Ethnic Divides
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春秋是某大夫 should be 春秋时某国大夫
作者(Author)：oops - 2002/01/18 16:05:43
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Thanks a lot!
作者(Author)：Privacy Hunter - 2002/01/18 00:14:02
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Thanks for your input! Please come more often to our timely rescue, English guru!
作者(Author)：古月 - 2002/01/18 00:33:25
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>>Sorry, don't have time to offer a complete re-translation, and wouldn't dare anyway without having access to the actual article. -- Crazy English Guy
You're right. We need to read the article itself or, at least, do an online search for terms specific to this subject before we rush to the rescue of this Privacy Hunter (hereafter referred to as "PH"). But, alas, we don't have time to do that either as PH was in such a hurry:
>> 作者(Author)：Privacy Hunter - 2002/01/16 09:03:49 ***
>> [还有8个小时就要交卷了,只好在线上看那位能帮帮忙了 :)) ]
If anybody cared to help, so to speak, his advice and suggestions would have to be posted before - 2002/01/16 17:03:49 ***
Sure, 8 hours would have been more than enough for a guru to read the article, do the research and offer a complete retranslation, assuming he had been a full-time surfer. Obviously it's impossible. So I quite understand you when you said "I don't have time....and wouldn't dare...."
Fortunately, however, PH got the following timely and daring responses:
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>>粗改了一下。仅供参考。
>> 作者(Author)：古月 - 2002/01/16 13:36:56 ***
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>>My version!
>> 作者(Author)：田园居士 - 2002/01/16 14:19:31 ***
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>>another version
>> 作者(Author)：didn't like [relic] per se - 2002/01/16 15:07:01 ***
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>>Better strategies and a few suggestions
>> 作者(Author)：crazy English guy - 2002/01/17 14:12:04 ***
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Pressed for time, rough-and-ready amendments (粗改) were offered. For my part, I chose to leave the original style intact while trying, however unsuccessfully, to offer alternatives to some of the terms that I deemed unidiomatic. In other words, nobody was trying to retranslate it. In my own writing, for example, I also prefer "specific" to "concrete" when rendering the Chinese term 具体 into English. But this is not my own writing or translation, and since I've often heard native speakers use "concrete" as well in the same context, I would just leave it alone. And since "relics" has been used in official translation for years, it could have been well understood and accepted against a Chinese backdrop. So I would usually let it pass as most of the native English revisers do for China Daily.
Having said that, I do appreciate your proposed strategic approaches to translation. Time permitting, we should always try to do more research before wading through uncharted waters in the future. Please visit us more often! Take care!
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The meaning of (translational) life, with concrete examples
作者(Author)：crazy English guy - 2002/01/18 14:01:33
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Geez, can't a man enjoy a little anonymity around here?
It makes for much happier flaming amongst colleagues. How come nobody else gets outed? :-)
My suggestions above were not intended as a "quick-fix" to help the translator who produced version 1.0 improve this particular translation within his deadline (which had, I believe, already passed). Rather, they were intended to illustrate how a responsible professional might approach the translation of this kind of text. In particular, I was seeking to intervene on a *strategic* level so that this new colleague might next time produce better results on his own.
Using the approach I suggested, it would have been entirely feasible for a junior translator to translate that rather short abstract from L1 (Chinese) into reasonably good L2 (English) within eight hours. I would suggest that with eight hours to produce that translation, instead of jumping in and translating "words", a beginner would be better advised first to spend two or three hours reading and analysing the SL text (i.e. the abstract and the article) and identifying and studying parallel texts in English on the Internet. The remaining five or six hours are more than enough to produce a good translation of the abstract - good here meaning that the TL abstract establishes the required level of intertextuality by reflecting the actual content of the article correctly and is reasonably idiomatic and coherent in TL (which is more readily accomplished in L2 by consulting parallel texts).
I believe that it is more useful for "gurus", or teachers, to offer process-oriented guidance - illustrated of course with sample translations - than to offer ready-made solutions (a fortiori ones which are not correct, see below). And probably the most important lesson that we, as experienced professionals, can share with our junior colleagues is that good translation is not about words but the analysis and re-expression of ideas. It is our job to be researchers, to get to the bottom of things, to figure out the SL author is really saying with those words, and then to express the ideas in clear and idiomatic TL. (The result may happen have a very low or very high degree of formal correspondence to the SL lexis and sytax, or something in between, but that is irrelevant. May the sterile "literal" vs. "free" debate rest eternally in peace.)
Now, it is obviously asking too much to expect a translator to produce entirely idiomatic output in L2, even a translator as experienced, expert, and erudite as Gu Yue. But the instant availability of authoritative expert texts on the Internet has expanded the possibilities. The junior colleague who sought help from this forum could have found better solutions on his own by using the Web effectively than by seeking the kind of help that the gurus provided, which was not in fact very helpful.
Time to don my asbestos gear at this point... Let's take a closer look at at a couple of Guru Gu's revisions.
要处理好历史文化保护与城镇建设的关系
Version 1.0: "The relationship between the preservation of historical relics and the development of the towns".
Guru: "The correlation between the preservation of historical relics and the development of towns".
The only change that the guru made to this sentence was to change the word "relationship" to "correlation". This is clearly a change for the worse. Version 1.0 can certainly be improved, but not by changing "relationship" into "correlation". "Correlation" implies something completely different, as I discussed above, and makes the author sound foolish.
要重视整体文化环境
Version 1.0: "The development of mountain townships in line with the overall cultural environment".
Guru's revision: "To introduce a cross-cutting cultural-environmental perspective".
Again, Version 1.0 could certainly be improved (what can't?), but as it stands is actually fairly clear. The Guru's revision is...ummmmm...dreadful, certainly neither lucid nor idiomatic, and most likely miles removed from what the author intended to say. I vote for Version 1.0.
These revisions look to me more like "乱改" than "粗改". As teachers, gurus, mentors, senior professionals, just colleagues, or whatever, we would do well to take a lesson from the medical profession. The primary tenet of the Hippocratic oath is "first do no harm".
Crazy English Guy
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"In corde mea". Thrice
作者(Author)：NT - 2002/01/18 14:26:58
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Responsibility:
a rare commodity generally not recognized in certain parts of the world, especially when no financial reward is involved and/or in association with hack work.
Anonymity:
1. something everyone wants but no one wants to give up;
2. syn. with "immoral", sense 2b. If one is moral, one naturally would not want to hide under the aegis of anonymity at any time under any circumstance, opp. of GUANGMINGLEILUO.
3. a perverted Western import intended to contaminate our nation's youth.
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So it IS you, Andrew! Great! Your advice is appreciated!
作者(Author)：古月 - 2002/01/18 17:53:08
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Especially your point on "taking a lesson from the medical profession" is well taken.
Indeed, a doctor may have saved hundreds of lives and cured thousands of illnesses over years of practice, but should he ever doze off over an operating table, he would then find himself being operated on rather than operating. The same applies to a language professional. One can never be too careful, especially, at a time when this site is generating a growing interest among professionals.
But at the same time, I feel very much encouraged and even invigorated as our works are being "tested by fire," which will purge "wood, hay and stubble," while the "gold, silver and precious stones" will survive and shine.:-)
Please feel free to fan the flame far and wide onto all the other pages and threads built up over the years. Your generous help would be deeply appreciated.
Salute!
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不知是否同一个人: 加拿大政府高级翻译 杜蕴德（Andrew C. Dawrant）, please confirm
作者(Author)：吹尽黄沙始见金 - 2002/01/18 18:14:39
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http://www.bfsu.edu.cn/univ/xz/13/13main3.htm
台湾辅仁大学外国语文学院翻译学研究所杨承淑教授、加拿大政府高级翻译杜蕴德（Andrew C. Dawrant）、夏威夷大学翻译中心主任、巴黎翻译学校校长、韩国外国语大学和朝鲜外国语大学的专家均曾赴高级翻译学院访问和讲学。高级翻译学院还培养了外国留学生3名（澳大利亚2名，加拿大1名）。
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Confirmed. Not surprised at all.
作者(Author)：古月 - 2002/01/18 18:33:13
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Almost all my freelance colleagues here in NYC are 美国政府（国务院）高级翻译. And many hold even more impressive titles.
Hidden Dragons and Crouching Tigers, huh? What a cute genius:-)
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备查：辩论在继续。。。
作者(Author)：汉英 - 2002/01/28 11:19:46
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还可以让您的饱学之友为您的杰出创造"correlation"之用法和
作者(Author)：虚怀若谷,嗷嗷待哺 - 2002/01/25 13:56:30 ***
自铸伟词 "cross-cutting cultural-environmental perspective"一并打打抱不平, 翻翻案, 别冤枉了好人, 埋没了人才.
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自己不理解，不等于没人用。native-Chinese speakers也不能保证什么中文用法都懂，反之亦然。
作者(Author)：古月 - 2002/01/25 22:00:26 ***
难得来个native-English speaker，大家啧啧称奇还来不及哪。中国人含蓄，对会点中文的洋人爱护有加。当然以观摩、借鉴、参考为主。没必要斤斤计较。
Searched the web for "cross-cutting perspective". Results 1 - 10 of about 117. Search took 0.14 seconds.
Untitled
... This hearing affords us the opportunity to take an important cross-cutting perspective
on the Department of Energy’s budget: an examination of the ways in ...
www.house.gov/science/reicher_030900.htm - 101k - Cached - Similar pages
[DOC] WMO/IOC/UNEP/ICSU
File Format: Microsoft Word 97 for Macintosh - View as HTML
... there. An additional member could be named as Chair to ensure that the cross-cutting perspective be included, and would be responsible for ensuring that the SC ...
www.unep.ch/earthw/6doc07-GOSSP.doc - Similar pages
Atlas Conferences
... to improve freshwater management and how to cope with the water crisis can only be
found in addressing sector related issues from a cross-cutting perspective. ...
atlas-conferences.com/cgi-bin/calendar/d/facb91 - 4k - Cached - Similar pages
The NRDP Welfare Reform Task Force
... to university-based researchers, the Task Force offers a distinct, cross-cutting perspective on rural welfare reform issues. Mission Accomplishments Welfare ...
www.rurdev.usda.gov/nrdp/welfare.html - 7k - Cached - Similar pages
Wiring it up - chapter 8
... of opportunity for senior officials to develop a broader, more cross-cutting perspective
through movement between departments and secondments outside the Civil ...
www.cabinet-office.gov.uk/innovation/2000/wiring/accountability/ 08.htm - 35k - Cached - Similar pages
Centre for Urban Technology | Agenda
... context ? To address these questions, CUT is developing an interdisciplinary and
cross-cutting perspective to build up a comprehensive picture of the dynamic ...
www.ncl.ac.uk/cut/agenda.html - 13k - Cached - Similar pages
Centre for Urban Technology | Publications - Splintering ...
... Towards A Critical Networked Urbanism. The Aim of this Book : Constructing a
Parallel and cross-cutting perspective on Urban and Infrastructural Change. ...
www.ncl.ac.uk/cut/publications/splinteringurbanism.html - 32k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.ncl.ac.uk ]
Enhancing Care Initiative - AIDS Care Framework: Situational ...
... allows individual areas of care to be analyzed through each cross-cutting perspective—epidemiology
and availability, costs and economics, and human rights ...
www.eci.harvard.edu/framework/situation_analysis.html - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF] The Capital Programming Process
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting our text version of this document.
... investment portfolio. b. Employ a ONE DOT cross-cutting perspective for those investments
in capital assets which affect multiple organizations. c. Simplify ...
cio.ost.dot.gov/whats_new/capprogmanual.pdf - Similar pages
[PDF] US Department of Transportation DOT 2301.1 XX-XX-XX Subject: ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting our text version of this document.
... investment portfolio. B. Employ a ONE DOT cross-cutting perspective for those investments
in capital assets which affect multiple organizations. C. Simplify ...
cio.ost.dot.gov/whats_new/capprogorder.pdf - Similar pages
Dalarna.se - Culture
... important because they give gainful employment in more rural areas, and because they
often contain valuable farmland from a cultural-environmental perspective. ...
www.dalarna.se/english/files/culture2.cfm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages
SAWC
... experience. However, more often than not, it is the caregiver who interprets patient's
pain according to his or her own cultural/environmental perspective. ...
www.woundcaresymposium.com/posters4.html - 74k - Cached - Similar pages
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"脸皮"一词您不是一用就几十年了吗, 都没有搞懂， 也好意思让人奉承您的中文？ 您若对《现汉》的定义还有保留， 尽管发表，让人见识见识您的中文底子。
作者(Author)：您永远是[难的]都懂，容易地反倒记不得 - 2002/01/25 23:11:03 ***
大家啧啧称奇的是他们一丝不苟的态度， 语言能力倒还是其次， 这是连初学的都看得明白的， 不必偷梁换柱地“胡解释”一通。 连老主席润之先生都不得不佩服他们的敬业精神， 写下老三篇中著名的一篇--《纪念白求恩》， 您总不至于要含沙射影地说老毛也是崇洋渣滓浮泛吧？
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What are we discussing?
作者(Author)：CEG - 2002/01/26 09:18:07 ***
Are we still discussing this one? If we are, then let's stick to the actual issue, okay?
I don't remember ever having said that "cross-cutting" does not collocate with "perspective". You are quite right in your belief that "cross-cutting perspective" exists in English usage (although a bit too jargony and opaque for my personal taste). The evidence you present upstairs certainly shows that this usage exists. (I think the first time I ever saw it was actually in a UN meeting.)
My comment, however, was that the English sentence offered as a translation of the Chinese sentence given was not in my judgment lucid or idiomatic, and seemed to me to be pretty far off base in terms of conveying the [likely] intended meaning of the Chinese.
If you would like to keep discussing that sentence, great. We can probably come up with many better versions, especially if the original poster could give more context.
My personal translation norm, though, is that as a general default value, a translation should be lucid, i.e. easily understandable, and preferably as idiomatic as possible as well, although we all work under unavoidable constraints in L2 - no exceptions.
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Sorry for the digression...
作者(Author)：古月 - 2002/01/27 02:06:20 ***
>>What are we discussing?
We were discussing the translation of "厚黑学" when some pugnacious guy raked up this old issue as an alternative ammunition for personal attacks.
>>Are we still discussing this one? If we are, then let's stick to
>>the actual issue, okay?
Yeah, when someone failed to stick to the issue under discussion, I'd usually ignore him. But this time, his digression(自铸伟词 "cross-cutting cultural-environmental perspective") seemed to be distorting your argument. You never said that I invented or coined the collocation on my own, did you? If I remember correctly, you only said it was "dreadful," and "not lucid nor idiomatic, and most likely miles removed from what the author intended to say..." Am I right? So when someone was distorting your judgment, I felt duty-bound to step up to the plate and set the record straight.
>>I don't remember ever having said that "cross-cutting" does not
>> collocate with "perspective".
No, of course, you didn't use "collocate." You only said it was "unidiomatic to boot.":-)
>> You are quite right in your belief that "cross-cutting perspective"
>>exists in English usage (although a bit too jargony and opaque for my
>>personal taste). The evidence you present upstairs certainly shows
>>that this usage exists. (I think the first time I ever saw it was
>>actually in a UN meeting.)
Thanks for confirming for me that I didn't coin the usage although it could be just as "dreadful" and "harmful" as those 117 search results from L1-speakers.:-)
>>My comment, however, was that the English sentence offered as a
>>translation of the Chinese sentence given was not in my judgment
>>lucid or idiomatic, and seemed to me to be pretty far off base in
>>terms of conveying the [likely] intended meaning of the Chinese.
No problem! Your comment and judgment are always respected and appreciated. And who should be deprived of the right to comment and judge anyway? As an L2-user, I'm not in a position to judge the lucidity or idiomaticity of any English usage, but I can easily understand a "cross-cutting perspective" to mean a perspective that cuts across a full spectrum of undertakings. In the context of urban planning, a "cross-cutting cultural-environmental perspective" would mean that planners should take culture/environment into account in all development efforts. But it's indeed arguable if it can be easily understood by those professors, the intended readers of the academic thesis. If YOU can't, well, I have no reason to believe that they can. So, I've decided to delete it outright from my active vocabulary.:-)
>>If you would like to keep discussing that sentence, great. We can
>> probably come up with many better versions, especially if the
>>original poster could give more context.
Sure, as I always say, "Improvement knows no end." Even the articles authored or co-authored by L1-users could be improved (what can't?). I offered the search results only to prove to the pugnacious guy that it was not my own coinage, hoping he would call a spade a spade. In fact, we are open to suggestions and alternatives all along. "Brainstorming" is one of the attractions of this forum. Do you know how many attempts some native users of Chinese made before they arrived at an acceptable Chinese version for "negotiating a ditch?" Check it out! Being a native-speaker alone, so to speak, does not automatically guarantee his knowledge about all the usages in his L1.
>>My personal translation norm, though, is that as a general default
>> value, a translation should be lucid, i.e. easily understandable,
>>and preferably as idiomatic as possible as well, although we all work
>>under unavoidable constraints in L2 - no exceptions.
No objection to your translation norm which is almost considered a general rule. The point of contention is usually focused on how to judge what is lucid and idiomatic. Of course, "as a Canadian" and "as a native user of English," your judgment does carry a lot more weight than those who "work under unavoidable constraints in L2."
"No exceptions"? True! There is a difference, though: some of us love to practice writing in L2 more than the others. :-)
Nice weekend!
链接(Link)：自己不理解，不等于没人用。native-Chinese speakers也不能保证什么中文用法都懂，反之亦然。 - 古月
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preservation of relics? Yes!
作者(Author)：Last Hermit - 2002/01/18 00:42:25
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The failure to preserve many Kelly relics has fuelled the mix-ups and myths that envelop the Kelly legend. Ned Kelly's skull was stolen from Old Melbourne Gaol in 1978. His gang's iron suits have been "bashed around and ridiculously mixed up", says Jones
链接(Link)："preservation and relics" through Guardian
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Meunique
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