JUST 于 2002/01/29 06:45:49 发表在 汉英
信，达，雅，may have become a cliche for many pros,even amateures.But 达，雅，are indeed hard to achieve.Fortnight ago,I happened to log on this site.I'm not trying to undermine or underestimate anyone,but 野草AND CEG ，impressed me with their distinguishable posts although they meant to flaunt a little bit at times ,but their 功力 are easy to detect.There is a saying :it takes ten years to polish your sword.They talk :right up to the point,(IN THIS CONTEXT ,COULD BE TRANSLATED INTO 到位）.
Context is definitely essetial, but 不到位的译文never works under any context, while good translations don't necessarily always need context.When we don;t have specific context ,we default the most commonly used circumstance, that's ok.So pro guys,don't mislead the unexperienced ones by exaggerating the function of context.
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Do you have the nerve to say the n-word even before black people,
作者(Author)：Last Hermit - 2002/01/29 09:18:01
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which is "the filthiest, nastiest word in the English language" ?
链接(Link)：That Word
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Meunique
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I have yet to see an erudite C-E translation by any Chinese
作者(Author)：ThunderBird - 2002/01/29 10:39:22
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I have just embarked on the road to C-E translation; it is my newfound hobby to enlighten my otherwise cultural doldrums in the United States.
In my limited experience, I have never felt satisfied with any C-E translation attempted by a Chinese. Reading those translations is like chewing a piece of rubber, tasteless and sometimes utterly yucky. In my humble opinion, the problem is that there has never been any motivation for Chinese to take C-E translation seriously; there is a deficit on C-E translations: the E-C translations far outstripped the C-E ones.
The best C-E undertakings were produced by either the collaboration of a Chinese and a native English speaker or by an English scholars who lived in Chinese communities for so long to pass for a native Chinese speaker.
There is only one road to C-E translation excellence: read as much as you can and strive to melt the two languages into one homogenous communication medium.
As China plunges into the world community deeper and deeper, the demand for C-E translation will be stronger and stronger.
But at that time, more and more native English speakers will join the pursuit.
Anyway, translation is a fun for those who lack originality but love the labor of words.
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Like what? Any sound examples for the alleged "best undertakings"?
作者(Author)：Last Hermit - 2002/01/29 10:53:46
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And any erudite undertakings by Your Highness as opposed to those injudiciously awkward ones?
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Meunique
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Oops. examples OF
作者(Author)：Last Hermit - 2002/01/29 11:05:53
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Meunique
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原则是对的, CEG的中文也还是有些问题, 看不出他驾驭汉语长复句的能力, 能够pass as native Chinese speaker, 个人眼光不同.
作者(Author)： - 2002/01/29 11:17:05
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恨由爱生, 这个我完全理解. 除非外文十分精湛, 对于一般人总还是更愿意把外文译为母语, 老中是这样, 老外也同样.
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CEG的中文确实有问题 and here is the proof
作者(Author)：CEG - 2002/01/29 15:17:04
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我的中文水平肯定不如论坛上任何一位以中文为母语的同事。我是从十五岁开始学的中文，对语言习得理论稍微有一点研究的人都可以告诉你，这么晚才开始接触一种外语，是不可能达到L1的水平的，用白话讲就是过了那个村就没有那个店了。当然，不断提高是十分合理的目标，但是，以为通过后天的努力就可以迎头赶上，完全达到L1的水平，那是自欺欺人的了。
我以为，翻译事业无非旨在为跨文化交流服务，这样一个翻译论坛，如果只有“老中”，没有“老外”参与的话，其价值恐怕就要打折扣了。其实，在全世界的翻译工作者协会当中，很可能只有中国译协一家是排斥“老外”的，换言之，作为全世界会员最多的翻译工作者协会的中国译协，其会员的语言组合完全是一面倒的，似乎没有任何一名会员是以中文以外的其他语言为母语的。大家说这样好吗？
如果因为我的出现，使得一些网友感到不舒服，实在很抱歉。我真的没有什么不可告人的险恶用心，纯粹就是希望和论坛上的同事们一起探讨一些翻译问题，彼此学习，相互批评，共同提高，如此而已。是不是可以请大家把讨论的重点重新集中在翻译问题上呢？
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竞争多了, 必然失败的也多了, anticipating that, I sighed.
作者(Author)：槛外人 [onus probandi non habeo] - 2002/01/29 15:53:01
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It nevertheless showed that our mother tongue--Chinese, is truly ascending to a world language. I never implied any 险恶用心. On the other hand, I tend to apply 高标准, 严要求 to the best contributors only.
我觉得你在思想感情的基准点上和 以中文为母语的同事 有差异, 这和语言能力没有关系, 你的译文字里行间之中有较为明显的体现.
你的特点是比较勤奋认真, 对付日常写作应不成问题. 看到你的中文, 本站以中文为母语的同事一定会为你为自豪不已, 同时也给人最大限度的鞭策和鼓舞. 希望你永远保持善待中国(人民)的心, 中国是个仍然讲究"盖馆定论"的国家.
Ad astra per aspera.
["成人不自在, 自在不成人"的拉丁文意译]
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ps
集中讨论的重点: 中国人也不是别的, 但是做到这个太难, 房子票子路子...
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"盖馆定论" should be 盖棺定论
作者(Author)： - 2002/01/29 17:42:14
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十分佩服您CEG的汉语水平!您的参与,是汉英论坛的光彩,肯定大有助于提高翻译学术的讨论水准。
作者(Author)：野草 - 2002/01/29 18:12:43
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如果此论坛层次差劲，像您这样的译界里手肯定是不屑一顾的。尽管讨论所涉未必尽是翻译大道理，提的问题有深有浅，间或甚至还有光打趣插科的，但是，谁都看得出，常来逛本坛的都是对语言现象情有独钟的一帮。有人感叹称咱们是“不食人间烟火”者，因为如今中国大环境明明是一切向钱看，可这些人有这么一身本事却偏偏跑到这儿来免费为世界人民服务，不是傻到了极点么？“傻瓜”店红火好几年了，不容易，希望保持这傻招牌，相信您除了冲者翻译学术水平之外，也是冲者这里的“傻”劲而来的。大家一块儿，能者多“傻”，从“老中”“老外”的不同角度多贡献点，互相取长补短，让天下人受益，岂不是件美事？
您的汉语水平之高，我早有所闻。有位老同事，是您的同行，曾与您同台，领略过您娴熟的汉语口语和翻译风采，大为钦佩。他对我说：“如果只听他在背后闲聊瞎侃，你绝对不会相信他不是中国人。”所以，您对汉语运用自如我是毫不怀疑的，您对汉语结构的研究和理解，对汉语语音的严格讲究，恐怕甚至比许多普通“老中”还更深，懂得更多。(大概就同这里一些“老中”对英语的语法结构等等抠得比英语“老外”都深、写出来的英语甚至“太正确”差不多。) 您说永远达不到L1水平，这当然是大实话，但至少您已经是差得不远了，应该引以为傲的。有些东西可能是弥补不过来的，比如您是在台湾学的汉语，大陆的东西自然就欠缺了。当代的东西易补，成了历史的东西，错过了就不容易抓回来了。那位同事就说：“他能把八个样板戏弄来吃透，语言就更了不得了。”他说的大概就是那最难补、最难maternalized的地方。
楼上竟把我也顺代夸了，实有过誉之嫌。本人曾是一介教书匠，从未专事翻译，只是跟教英语打了一辈子交道。本是中国人，从小就会说点中国话，但真正学汉语也是和您开始学中文的年龄相仿，得天独厚的条件是从此一直在纯汉语的大陆环境学用汉语，所以中文成了自己的L1。英语呢，可以骄傲地说，全是中国大陆老师教的。泡得够久了，就算是ESL毕业水平吧？：-)虽然我可以教英语L1“老外”如何教授英语，但我知道，自己永远无法达到英语L1水平。所以，在家我跟孩子学英语，工作中跟同事学英语，上街跟路人学英语，处处都有英语好学，处处都有翻译好做，学也学不尽，翻也翻不完，但我觉得是一种乐趣，也希望同更多的人分享这种乐趣。这就是我乐于上坛来逛的原因。本来本坛人才济济，又添了您，我又多了个可以请教学习的先生，万幸！
有感而发，随便说说，算是对您光临的由衷欢迎！希望您多来，会有益于您的“老中化”的。：-)
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Thank you for telling us about yourself, I respect you and
作者(Author)：your point. - 2002/01/31 01:14:57
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热诚希望您能够留下来
作者(Author)：JT - 2002/01/29 21:18:49
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最近读到您的一些关于翻译的论述，得益良多。
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The plum in the Golden Vase by David Roy
作者(Author)：ThunderBird - 2002/01/29 16:39:02
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Book Description
In this second of a planned five-volume series, David Roy provides a complete and annotated translation of the famous Chin P'ing Mei, an anonymous sixteenth-century Chinese novel that focuses on the domestic life of Hsi-men Ch'ing, a corrupt, upwardly mobile merchant in a provincial town, who maintains a harem of six wives and concubines. This work, known primarily for its erotic realism, is also a landmark in the development of narrative art--not only from a specifically Chinese perspective but in a world-historical context.
With the possible exception of The Tale of Genji (1010) and Don Quixote (1615), there is no earlier work of prose fiction of equal sophistication in world literature. Although its importance in the history of Chinese narrative has long been recognized, the technical virtuosity of the author, which is more reminiscent of the Dickens of Bleak House, the Joyce of Ulysses, or the Nabokov of Lolita than anything in the earlier Chinese fiction tradition, has not yet received adequate recognition. This is partly because all of the existing European translations are either abridged or based on an inferior recension of the text. This translation and its annotation aim to faithfully represent and elucidate all the rhetorical features of the original in its most authentic form and thereby enable the Western reader to appreciate this Chinese masterpiece at its true worth.
About the Author
David Tod Roy is Professor Emeritus of Chinese Literature at the University of Chicago, where he has studied the Chin P'ing Mei and taught it in his classics for the last three decades.
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读过卷一, 错误之多(望文生义类), 不忍卒读, 其他疙瘩不计
作者(Author)： - 2002/01/29 16:45:43
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David Roy and no one else.
作者(Author)：ThunderBird - 2002/01/30 10:33:13
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David Roy has lived and studied in China almost half of his life. If he couldn't do it, then I don't think anybody else can. It only means that the book is almost beyond translation.
Is there even an attempt by a Chinese traslator? Let me know.
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请息怒: "老粉嘴", "偏染的布儿不上色" 等上千个《金瓶梅》特有词汇殊难找到"绝妙"英译
作者(Author)： - 2002/01/30 11:51:49
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《金瓶梅》绝就绝在"骂"的艺术成就, 主角潘金莲更是"骂"技卓越, 天生骂才, 具体表现在:
1. 内容来源: 喜怒哀乐, 皆能开骂,
2. 从方式上来看, 有: 叱骂, 怒骂, 对骂, 笑骂, 臭骂, 辱骂, 唾骂, 佯骂, 拐弯抹角地骂.....
3. 尖酸刻薄程度: PH值<1.5
4. 创造性: 9.5 on a scale of 1 to 10
5. 回骂可能性: <20%
如果要建立"世界汉语长舌术研究会", 潘当然是首屈一指, 当仁不让, 非他莫属之永久会长. 我所知道的外文里绝对没有办法体现如此丰富多彩, 层次分明, 杀伤力强(几乎空前绝后)的长舌术.
David Roy 的翻译, 在这方面上充其量只是"虽然说了几句, 也就是不痛不痒的程度, 比不得潘原文"态度恳切"!!
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:-) How do you rate 金瓶梅 的骂"的艺术 as compared to those happening around here ? :-) :-)
作者(Author)：Yeti - 2002/01/30 16:44:07
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满汉全席 :: macaroni & cheese (kids meal)
作者(Author)：fair enough?? - 2002/01/30 17:07:17
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On the other hand, I question the wisdom/need of reading such a
作者(Author)： - 2002/01/30 12:17:10
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masterpiece in a foreign language when one has the advantage of 在纯汉语的大陆环境学用汉语, 和汉语打了一辈子交道.
Explain that to a native Chinese speaker! It would have been a much better way to polish one's English skills by reading nothing but the best original English articles. The best translation work is STILL somewhat inferior to the original piece in the same way that bilingual dictionaries can NOT be 100% relied upon, period.
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Will you paste a few paragraphs of the translation?
作者(Author)：Let us see. - 2002/01/29 20:10:13
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I don't have the book handy, but will do it later.
作者(Author)：ThunderBird - 2002/01/30 10:36:50
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If I have the time, I will try to juxtapose the Chinese and the English translation to show how well David Roy has done with the masterpiece.
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回答敬爱的"WAX"
作者(Author)：我弱智, 您别一般见识. - 2002/01/29 11:22:45
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我上网不过是休闲(去读读laoliu等人的帖子), 不象您总有正业, 误了您的钱学评论写作进度总归不好. 已经被人封了"茅坑里的石头", 您又是首当其冲地在这个"茅坑"里尽心尽力地超额完成了您的"工作", 能落得一身臭倒也"臭得其所", 你行吗?
那个叫做'disciple'的很可能还是个未成年人, 救救孩子!
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