“三人行必有我师”，
“色不异空，空不异色；色即是空，空即是色”，等。
其它一时想不起，待想起后，再来请教。
跟贴目录:
- "to beat about the bush" is close. - Owen 20000424125427
- isn't it just the opposite? - pit-nicker 20000424231037
- 我也觉着奇怪 - 石方 20000424233628
- 非也非也，是讲来讲去都是绕着正题然而又不触及正题的意思。 - JT 20000425000817
- That's very precise indeed! Thanks! - Owen 20000425002912
- Maybe we can say: "to evade the key issue by beating about the bush". - 野草 20000425084518
- That's very precise indeed! Thanks! - Owen 20000425002912
- Or you may wish to use“He was digressing.” - Owen 20000425001523
- "hedging" is good for translating "闪烁其词"and "顾左右而言他" - 古月 20060320140830
- "hedging" is good for translating "闪烁其词"and "顾左右而言他" - 古月 20060320140830
- beat around/about the bush - 土方 20000425092945
- 非也非也，是讲来讲去都是绕着正题然而又不触及正题的意思。 - JT 20000425000817
- 我也觉着奇怪 - 石方 20000424233628
- isn't it just the opposite? - pit-nicker 20000424231037
- 色不异空，空不异色；色即是空，空即是色 - tian xin 20000424170425
- 对，“三人行”以前有过... - 汉英 20000424195703
- 似乎《汉英大词典》的英译更准确 - tian xin 20000424203502
- 终于把以前有关“三人行”讨论全部找出来了！ - 汉英 20000424213452
- 终于把以前有关“三人行”讨论全部找出来了！ - 汉英 20000424213452
- 供参考 - 正 20000424231457
- 我跟您比不自由吧:-) - hz 20000424232644
- 谢谢！tyop而已:-) - 正 20000424233706
- typo！:) - 正 20000424233828
- 哈哈哈，瞧着老兄一个typo接着一个tyop，太有意思了。谢指正！ - 汉英 20000424234623
- 汉英兄，第一个实际上是copy之后漏改的，见:-)))) - 正 20000425001105
- 明白了。错不在你:-))))) - 汉英 20000425002118
- 但写tyop时仓促中以为是typo ：-))))) - 正 20000425002846
- 但写tyop时仓促中以为是typo ：-))))) - 正 20000425002846
- 明白了。错不在你:-))))) - 汉英 20000425002118
- 汉英兄，第一个实际上是copy之后漏改的，见:-)))) - 正 20000425001105
- Thanks! - hz 20000425000109
- 哈哈哈，瞧着老兄一个typo接着一个tyop，太有意思了。谢指正！ - 汉英 20000424234623
- typo！:) - 正 20000424233828
- 谢谢！tyop而已:-) - 正 20000424233706
- 我跟您比不自由吧:-) - hz 20000424232644
- 似乎《汉英大词典》的英译更准确 - tian xin 20000424203502
- how about this one - seven 20000424220031
- 对，“三人行”以前有过... - 汉英 20000424195703
- A more literal alternative for “色...空...” - 古月 20000424204558
- 有一点不明白 - 石方 20000424211347
- color 在这里也可以充当没有实际意义的代词，与blankness相对构成辩证。 - 古月 20000424214044
- 吴 光 华 主 编 的。。。 - 石方 20000424220820
- 太玄奥了，It's beyong my simple mind. Just one silly - xy 20000425161625
- Quotation from an unlikely source plus my amateurish interpretation. - The Yeti 20000425172222
- 多谢，不过我的头都大了！多年前看了一本介绍萨特的书， - XY 20000425174735
- 是的，用萨特的“存在与虚无”来解读佛家的“色与空”概念也是讲的通的。 - 古月 20000425182235
- Is "萨特" Jean Paul Sarte? - The Yeti 20000425201953
- Yep, Jean-Paul Sartre and his L'etre et le neant (Being and Nothingness) - 古月 20000425203446
- So many good books, so little time ! sigh ! - The Yeti 20000426163930
- You don't have to regret not having read Sarte. - tian xin 20000426205450
- 公公 is a nice elderly gentleman, I may be elderly, but I don't think I am nice ! :-) - The Yeti 20000426213713
- 公公 is a nice elderly gentleman, I may be elderly, but I don't think I am nice ! :-) - The Yeti 20000426213713
- You don't have to regret not having read Sarte. - tian xin 20000426205450
- So many good books, so little time ! sigh ! - The Yeti 20000426163930
- Yep, Jean-Paul Sartre and his L'etre et le neant (Being and Nothingness) - 古月 20000425203446
- BTW, thank you and t.x. for calling me 雪公公. No need for the whitewash! I think I am closer to being 雪老怪or 雪怪物:-)! - 雪老怪 20000425204145
- I see, Abominable Snowman! Can you survive without Snow? - 古月 20000425205018
- I see, Abominable Snowman! Can you survive without Snow? - 古月 20000425205018
- Is "萨特" Jean Paul Sarte? - The Yeti 20000425201953
- 是的，用萨特的“存在与虚无”来解读佛家的“色与空”概念也是讲的通的。 - 古月 20000425182235
- 多谢，不过我的头都大了！多年前看了一本介绍萨特的书， - XY 20000425174735
- Quotation from an unlikely source plus my amateurish interpretation. - The Yeti 20000425172222
- 吴 光 华 主 编 的。。。 - 石方 20000424220820
- From a Buddhist point of view - tian xin 20000425010748
- 好象大家都有道理似的 - 石方 20000425080851
- 好象大家都有道理似的 - 石方 20000425080851
- color 在这里也可以充当没有实际意义的代词，与blankness相对构成辩证。 - 古月 20000424214044
- 有一点不明白 - 石方 20000424211347
- “王。。。”可以是Talk round - Troy 20000425081410
"to beat about the bush" is close.
作者：Owen - 2000/04/24 12:54:27 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
isn't it just the opposite?
作者：pit-nicker - 2000/04/24 23:10:37 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
我也觉着奇怪
作者：石方 - 2000/04/24 23:36:28 ***据查，beat around the bush 有一点“打破沙锅问道底”的意思，还有一丝不苟，兢兢业业的意思。不知怎么才能理解成“王顾左右而言他”？
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
非也非也，是讲来讲去都是绕着正题然而又不触及正题的意思。
作者：JT - 2000/04/25 00:08:17 ***但“王。。。”则应从回答方面来考虑，或许可以译作“evade the question by changing the subject”或者“give only evasive answers”。
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
That's very precise indeed! Thanks!
作者：Owen - 2000/04/25 00:29:12 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
Maybe we can say: "to evade the key issue by beating about the bush".
作者：野草 - 2000/04/25 08:45:18 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
Or you may wish to use“He was digressing.”
作者：Owen - 2000/04/25 00:15:23 ***According to Roget's International Thesaurus, the phrase "to beat about the bush" has the following three shades of nuances :
1) quibble: 扯皮；
2) be circumlocutory: 兜圈子 (旁敲侧击？)；
3) sidestep: 回避问题；
It seems to be close to "digressing."
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"hedging" is good for translating "闪烁其词"and "顾左右而言他"
作者(Author)：古月 - 2006/03/20 14:08:30 ***[ 回应此贴(Respond to this followup) | 查看原贴(Back to Original) ]
beat around/about the bush
作者：土方 - 2000/04/25 09:29:45 ***coll. go around a subject instead of coming directly to the point; approach a matter cautiously in a roundabout way.
(口）转弯抹角地说话，旁敲侧击。
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色不异空，空不异色；色即是空，空即是色
作者：tian xin - 2000/04/24 17:04:25 ***Form is not separate from Emptiness, Emptiness is not separate from Form;
Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form.
“三人行”句好象论坛以前讨论过。
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
对，“三人行”以前有过...
作者：汉英 - 2000/04/24 19:57:03 ***If I am walking with two other men, each of them will serve as my teacher. I will pick out the good points of the one and imitate them, and the bad points of the other and correct them in myself.
三人行必有我师，取其善者从之，取其恶者戒之
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似乎《汉英大词典》的英译更准确
作者：tian xin - 2000/04/24 20:35:02 ***If three of us are walking together, at least one of the other two is good enough to be my teacher.
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
终于把以前有关“三人行”讨论全部找出来了！
作者：汉英 - 2000/04/24 21:34:52 ***How to translate "三人之行必有我师" by 急需 , Sat Nov 7 01:01
****************************************************
转贴
这题目在此早讨论过了，请阅旧帖...
Sat Nov 7 02:30:10 1998
If I am walking with two other men, each of them will serve as my
teacher. I will pick out the good points of the one and imitate them, and
the bad points of the other and correct them in myself.
三人行必有我师，取其善者从之，取其恶者戒之
***********************************************
duke
应该先正确理解古汉语
Wed Nov 25 22:45:43 1998
“三”在古汉语中是虚数而非确数，并非“三个”之义；“行”也并非“行走”之义。因此，拟翻为“Of all my companies,at least one can be my teacher.”较妥
*************************************************
Alt: Of every two in my company, at least one can be my teacher. by 古月 , Mon Nov 9 16:30
**************************************************
方壶斋
The whole translation
Sat Nov 7 12:38:26 1998
The Master saith:" According to the English grammar, there must be a wisest one among three wise guys. Use the -est form when you describe the best, and not at all when you describe the worst."
三人行必有我师，取其善者从之，取其恶者戒之
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供参考
作者：正 - 2000/04/24 23:14:57 ***记得是
三人行必有我师焉，择其善者从之，其不善者而改之
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
我跟您比不自由吧:-)
作者：hz - 2000/04/24 23:26:44 ***择其善者[而]从之。(记性比不了。抄的:-)
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
谢谢！tyop而已:-)
作者：正 - 2000/04/24 23:37:06 ***算个平手。比得好，谢谢！
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
typo！:)
作者：正 - 2000/04/24 23:38:28 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
哈哈哈，瞧着老兄一个typo接着一个tyop，太有意思了。谢指正！
作者：汉英 - 2000/04/24 23:46:23 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
汉英兄，第一个实际上是copy之后漏改的，见:-))))
作者：正 - 2000/04/25 00:11:05 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
明白了。错不在你:-)))))
作者：汉英 - 2000/04/25 00:21:18 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
但写tyop时仓促中以为是typo ：-)))))
作者：正 - 2000/04/25 00:28:46 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
Thanks!
作者：hz - 2000/04/25 00:01:09 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
hz，要说记忆，有一个人，
作者：正 - 2000/04/25 00:13:39 ***待会儿告诉您，。。。
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
接着说
作者：正 - 2000/04/25 00:22:37 ***有个人可能您知道，他真的记得的书，包括内容，
比我知道的(不要说看过的)要多至少1000以上！
他也在北京。刚才打印机没纸了，对不起。
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
您可考着我了:-)
作者：hz - 2000/04/25 09:35:12 ***以前陈寅恪先生的记忆力是出了名的，却已作古；现在是谁呢？季羡林先生？张中行先生？hz 被“烤糊”了:-)
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
那位老先生。。。
作者：正 - 2000/04/25 10:07:25 ***那位老先生并无震耳之名，也不求名。
甚至在他同行稍大点的圈里的人都不一定知道，
他是张政lang(火旁+良)先生，治古代史，版本
目录学，古文字包括甲骨，金文，汉简，等，
一般说随便提一个问题，他就立刻说出是在那几
本书，多少多少卷，怎么怎么说。他在老年之前
从不做笔记，全凭记忆，相信不比当年陈先生差。
我这瞎说，但都是实话。老觉着在北京您和那个
圈准很接近，但侧在文学方面，当然不一定知道
他。
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
您还别说
作者：hz - 2000/04/25 11:07:44 ***这位老先生的名讳:-)倒确实听说过，然而也就仅此而已。我的兴趣太杂，文史都不是我的专业，所以
一谈到稍微细节一点的东西，立刻露馅:-)借此再多请教一句，他是在社科院历史所吗？
谢谢您的介绍，很有意思！
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
又是个意外
作者：正 - 2000/04/25 11:49:23 ***不学文还那么文且雅，吓得我这胆小的又快说
不出话来了！：)
听说是历史所的。据知也没错，肯定是。前两天看
网上新闻，说要出一本古文字诂林，迄今为止最大的
古文字典，上面有张老名字。听说他在他的所里倒是
无人不晓:)，公认的是最渊博的掌握史料最多的
老前辈。咱们比不自由，没几分钟我就输。真比，那天
商量好了，打听个地址，咱们一块找他比去！
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
我那是......
作者：hz - 2000/04/25 12:41:41 ***为自己的无知找的冠冕堂皇的借口。求您别跟我比谦虚了，我词穷了:-)张老先生那儿，我...我...我大概还是遥拜祝他安康比较安全些:-)))
真的很谢谢您介绍的情况！
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
谢谢。
作者：正 - 2000/04/25 19:36:55 ***补充一点，我也是道听途说，不足为据。
还是会到孔老夫子，知之为知之，不知为不知，
比较安全。谢谢。
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
how about this one
作者：seven - 2000/04/24 22:00:31 ***Form is emptiness; emptiness also is form. Emptiness is no other than form; form is no other than emptiness.
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
A more literal alternative for “色...空...”
作者：古月 - 2000/04/24 20:45:58 ***The price of color equals the value of blankness.
Very similar to Oscar Wilder's definition of a cynic: He who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
有一点不明白
作者：石方 - 2000/04/24 21:13:47 ***这里的“色”到底是颜色的意思还是“千姿百态万物“的意思有待商榷。翻了佛典，并参考了汉英大辞典对于“色即是空，空即是色”的翻译和注解，他们是这样翻译的：
All reality a phantom, and all phantoms real; The form is nonexistence, and nonexistence is the form.
显然，这里是个辩证法，即“有”寄予在“无”之中，“有”和“无”是个不可分割的统一体。所以，对于前一句“色不已空，空不异色”的翻译，小辈认为可能是：
There is no difference between reality and phantom /form and nonexistence.
或者：
All reality makes no difference from a phantom, neither do all phantoms make difference from the real.
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
color 在这里也可以充当没有实际意义的代词，与blankness相对构成辩证。
作者：古月 - 2000/04/24 21:40:44 ***同样可以作为一种比喻修辞。value在用来形容色彩时，作“成色”“色调”解。即使是“无色”，也是一种“色调”，岂不是“有”“无”辩证法？因此，无论单个词作何解，关键是它所指代的概念或意韵能出来就行。
您这字典的解释也很不错，对证实咱的理解很有好处，谢谢！但字典毕竟是字典，只是抽象地将原句作个普遍能够接受的解释。在具体使用中还得视不同的对象和上下文决定究竟选用抽象一点的警句还是形象一点的修辞。不妨将咱们的几种译法都收集起来供日后备选吧！
BTW，您那汉英字典是什么版本，何处所出？一定很有意思。
古月
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吴 光 华 主 编 的。。。
作者：石方 - 2000/04/24 22:08:20 ***“ 汉 英 大 辞 典”， 上 海 交 大 出 版 社。1993 年8 月 第 一 版。
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
太玄奥了，It's beyong my simple mind. Just one silly
作者：xy - 2000/04/25 16:16:25 ***question, could 空 mean "nothingness"?
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
Quotation from an unlikely source plus my amateurish interpretation.
作者：The Yeti - 2000/04/25 17:22:22 ***(The quotation is from a Kung Fu Story, forgot the name, maybe Tlgx
can remember which one it is !)
Now for my very amateurish view, and let me use this opportunity to
find out from you experts whether my very
limited knowledge of these 3 terms are correct or not.
(The 3 terms followed by an example)
.空.. Emptiness, impercetibles
色. Form: Our perception of the impercetible. Due to our limited senses,
"form" is only a "distorted" image of reality constructed by our mind from a
limited set of sensory inputs.
相 :Symbolification is the "representations" we made from the "forms" we have in our minds.
==============================
Example: Question: What is the universe really like ?
.空. The actual state of the universe. This is impercetible to us
due to our limited sense of perception.
色 Our perception of the universe as based upon our observation through our
eyes (optical spectrum) and our instruments ( other parts of the electromagnetic
spectrum)
相 Words and expressions of colour, shape, size etc..that we employ to describe
our "perception" of the universe..
An Aside:
In the early days of Quantum Theory, many physicist, including notables like
Oppenheimer, were drawn by the curious parallel between the way the Copenhagen
school of of Quantum Theory interpreted reality and that of Buddhism's. In the Copenhagen
school of interpretation, the state of a system is unknown (imperceptible.空. ) until
a measurement is made. The process of measurement yields a result which is
but one of many possible state the system co-existed in before the measurement was made.
The [(process of measurement)= ( perception 色 )] yields only a "modified"
picture of nature; a picture that is biased by our senses (instruments included).
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
多谢，不过我的头都大了！多年前看了一本介绍萨特的书，
作者：XY - 2000/04/25 17:47:35 ***当时觉得自己能懂老萨，颇多共鸣。于是以为自己懂哲学了，买了一本“存在与虚无”，一翻开，才知道自己根本看不懂。从此不再想什么哲学的事情了。就这么糊糊涂涂地活着吧！糊涂到底，也很快乐！一有人要和我讨论生活的哲学，我就没词，头发涨，告诉他们，我要“过”生活，不是“想”生活。人生苦短，哪有那么多工夫想啊！但愿不要冒犯了诸位哲学家！:-))
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
是的，用萨特的“存在与虚无”来解读佛家的“色与空”概念也是讲的通的。
作者：古月 - 2000/04/25 18:22:35 ***如果雪公公转帖所述“色者总称有形之万物”成立的话，那么用“Being”对译“色”，用“nothingness”对译“空”就是存在主义对佛家概念的解读。已有好多有关存在主义与佛学的比较著述了。至少应该是自成一体的百家之一吧。
古月
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Is "萨特" Jean Paul Sarte?
作者：The Yeti - 2000/04/25 20:19:53 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
Yep, Jean-Paul Sartre and his L'etre et le neant (Being and Nothingness)
作者：古月 - 2000/04/25 20:34:46 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
So many good books, so little time ! sigh !
作者：The Yeti - 2000/04/26 16:39:30 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
You don't have to regret not having read Sarte.
作者：tian xin - 2000/04/26 20:54:50 ***At least you have avoided the fate of being put off philosophy for the rest of your precious life like poor XY.
幸运的雪公公。Sorry can't bring myself to call you 雪老怪。
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
公公 is a nice elderly gentleman, I may be elderly, but I don't think I am nice ! :-)
作者：The Yeti - 2000/04/26 21:37:13 ***叫我为雪公公我不敢当,不如叫我为雪老怪比较合适多了.
Just kidding,feel free to call me whatever you want.
[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
BTW, thank you and t.x. for calling me 雪公公. No need for the whitewash! I think I am closer to being 雪老怪or 雪怪物:-)!
作者：雪老怪 - 2000/04/25 20:41:45 ***[ 回应此贴 | 查看原贴 ]
I see, Abominable Snowman! Can you survive without Snow?
作者：古月 - 2000/04/25 20:50:18 ***But the Chinese equivalent given in my English-Chinese dictionary is simply "雪人." As you've been whitened with enough snow, why do we have to whitewash you any further? Kidding!
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From a Buddhist point of view
作者：tian xin - 2000/04/25 01:07:48 ***佛教认为“空”乃天地万物的本体。“色”乃万物本体（空）的瞬息生灭的假象。“空”相当于道教中的“道”，基督教中的非人格化上帝或哲学中的终极实在(Ultimate Reality)，乃“虚无之系，造化之根”，道可道，非常道，却又是万物生成的母本。God created the world, but God is never separate from His creation and is in everyone and everything.
只有在经过修炼达到涅磐(Nirvana)或亲证上帝状态后，人才能体验到色空无异，物我两忘，天人合一的佛的境界或上帝意识。在此之前，于我等深陷红尘，只能从二元角度认识和体验世界的俗人，空即是色等命题至多是在理性上的理解或直觉上的认同，是不为一般哲学意义上的辩证所解释的。因此看起来paradoxical也不足为奇。
另外，用phantom和reality (non-existence)对译“色”“空”在意思上没错。现在，英译佛典多用Form和Emptiness。仅供参考。谢讨论。
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好象大家都有道理似的
作者：石方 - 2000/04/25 08:08:51 ***用form代色，能够说明问题。好象参照了某家西方哲学。可资参照的哲学肯定不止一家。只要能说明问题，百家争鸣也无妨吧？叩谢！
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“王。。。”可以是Talk round
作者：Troy - 2000/04/25 08:14:10 ***---------------------------
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