WQ 于 2000/04/27 14:07:49 发表在 汉英
AN UPBRAIDING
T. Hardy
Now I am dead you sing to me
The song we used to know,
But while I lived you have no wish
Or care for doing so.
Now I am dead you come to me
In the moonlight, comfortless;
Ah, what would I have gives alive
To win such tenderness!
When you are dead and stand to me
Not differenced, as now,
But like again, will you be cold
As when we lived, or how?
我之亡也, 子来我歌,
及我之生, 不与我歌,
岂不知歌, 莫我肯劳也.
我之亡也, 之来我顾,
月出之光, 照子之踽踽.
及我之生, 忘我实多,
使子无忘, 亦可使我心无伤悲也.
生则异室, 死则同穴.
及子百岁, 子又将如我何哉?
如我何哉? 今日以永焉?
如我何哉? 复以我生焉?
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跟贴目录:
对不起忘了标题, 按诗经例子应该是--子歌.
作者：WQ - 2000/04/27 14:11:13
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绝妙！又是：想夸，没词儿了！只能提个问题：您老高寿？
作者：XY - 2000/04/27 14:52:33
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都不能问您是哪届私塾毕业的了，简直象唐宋遗老遗少嘛！实在太好了！能拜您为师吗？本人基本没有古文底子，但很喜欢，相信还不是朽木不可雕。您这译文可列入唐诗三百首而不至引起怀疑。感叹呀，现代人怎能把古文学到这份上呢？:-)
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纠正
作者：xy - 2000/04/27 15:01:14
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全跟正兄学的，上帖就改:-). 不能说是“唐诗三百首”，应是诗经。我当时脑子里想除了背几首唐诗，也得把WQ的这首背下来。嘿，又来个邻居：wxyz, 哈哈！
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挨我何事！:-) ----------往事的回忆，my friend forgot
作者：正 - 2000/04/28 14:14:20
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您就不跟您那家兄学，刚贴就重贴？:-)
这两天您提到forgot，大家也应帖，倒引起我不少有趣的回忆，借这条美好的诗歌的线链，贴一条我和forgot的第一次应帖，可能晚来的网友也会感兴趣：
一天我刚上网不回儿，看见这样一首小诗：
告诉你，我爱你，不骗你，就像老农爱玉米！
(记得是这样)
孤零零地在那儿。我没看下款，---咱办事从来就慌，又急，
所以，XY兄，咱常常就上帖就改---心想：说不定是个女孩，甭
理她，没准还是个“banana”，老外。。。
可是，it's so FUNNY!! 没过两分钟，我又回头看了一眼，还是
没看落款，--反正我也是个新人，谁都不认识(咱看得是帖！)，
想都没想，就在下面写了个“试译”：刚一enter，嗳，原词
看不见了，----就凭记忆吧，
listen, i love you, i love you, you are just 一美妞！
.....后来forgot在她的帖子里很快说到她是个男的，我就相信了，
觉得他非常非常nice，就是有点女孩气，那也可爱，老想猜测
他长得什么样，。。。因为我倒有个女儿，她很漂亮呀！forgot
会不会。。。。
啊，我的美好的回忆。。。！
就写到这儿吧。恐怕要忙两天，可能一时难写帖，但我会读的，
各位网友！顺便说一句：
forgot，你就真的不再回来了吗，forgot?!
我倒宁愿您还是个“他”！“他”！！“他”！！！_______
----just kidding.
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sorry, 还得改，像XY兄学：是 "碍我何事"!!
作者：zy - 2000/04/28 14:17:12
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奇绝，很欣赏，佩服！
作者：zy - 2000/04/27 14:53:15
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又一绝妙戏译奇珍！令人叹为观止！
作者：野草 - 2000/04/27 15:08:04
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您从远古走来，又不注意时差，Ah me!
作者：tian xin - 2000/04/27 15:33:42
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我之睡也, 子来我歌,
及我之醒, 不与我歌,
岂不知和，莫我所能也。
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一点答谢，兼致大头兄
作者：cy - 2000/04/29 02:36:34
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一点答谢，兼致大头兄
小诗有趣，时差和时代差的分和离异，都巧妙地结合在一起了。
看来白天睡眠后，可能时间差就小了，借此机会，跟您说两句
话，表示我的一点感谢。一是哈代的诗，承您释说，领悟顿深，我
主要由于忙，三言两语，不足以达意，未能郑重答您；二是楼下
读大头兄帖，颇有感触，大头兄和他帖子上下的帖子，我也都
未暇认真作答，但感触是很深的。文坛不同于政坛，感情的成分，
和真诚的意义，所占的分量或许要多一点。而说到为人处事，恐怕
就更是如此了。即使是政客，我想，如果他也要著文，也要作人的话，
那在著文，作人时，似仍要有和为政时稍微不同的标准，---如果不
和他的为政标准一样，至少不应该更差，否则是很难在生活中取信
于人的，而反过来，对于为政的事业，也未尝不是一个损失。读您和
大头兄的帖子，我感到了在文学和政论的不同方面，却有着一种共
同的可贵的真诚，这种真诚的价值，我觉得是有其超越于文学学术和政治
观点之上的，是含有真正的感人的力量的，这是我阅读您和大
头兄帖子的一点小小的体会，借此机会写在这里，作为一点迟到的表达。希
您和大头兄不介意。各不周之处，亦盼谅解。趁夜深心静，我还要有些
事要做，匆匆写几句，言不达意，容后再谈。亦盼读到您和各位网友
更多的帖子。谢谢和大头兄！也谢谢版主为网友提供了这样一个
少有的交流的地方和机会！
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绝非有意，对不起，名字又打错了，是zy，道歉！
作者：zy - 2000/04/29 02:39:03
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不是“不要同tian xin讲话”吗？ :)
作者：tian xin - 2000/04/29 05:13:42
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You are welcome. It was your excellent translations of Hardy that inspired such wonderful responses from everybody and graced our Easter weekend with poetic beauty and friendly love. I just did what I was relatively capable of doing, mainly to compensate for my inhibition to express open admiration. A weakness since childhood, I feel embarrassed when I have to borrow a pinch of salt from next door neighbour or to lavish praises on other people. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate what they have done either for me or for others. And I have realized, of course, how we all need some degree of encouragement from our fellow beings now and then. I am very grateful for He Zi, XY, px, Yecao and many others who seldom fail to give their generous support to others, including myself, at Hy00. My sincere thanks to all.
Please understand if I don't join in criticism or self-criticism sessions, apart from cracking a few jokes as the clown. I remember writing in one of my doggerel poems 曾经错误，拒绝判断-having wronged others myself, I refuse to judge. It is a dearly learned lesson in life. We all make mistakes, and I recall once myself attacking back someone who I reckon must have his/her own reasons attacking me or my pride in the first place, and I have regretted since.
When I look back at my own career:) at C/E as well as others, I genuinely feel each one's actions, positive or negative, are understood and accepted within the larger context of being human. We are not all that different after all, to say nothing of mostly being New China expats. It must be incredible karma that has brought us here from all over the globe and let's make the best of it and help one another to grow up gracefully in cyber space:)
好好学习，天天向上。
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说着不写检讨就写了这么一大篇？这要是真写检讨时，是不是就该出一本书了？开个玩笑！
作者：大头 - 2000/04/29 10:32:16
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不写，您看那zy君能让咱蒙蔽过关吗？
作者：tian xin - 2000/04/29 17:59:25
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Accidentally saw your commentary on forbearance upstairs and I agree with you to a certain extent. But one has to bear in mind that tolerance is not passivity, nor does it necessarily bring about tragic results. True forbearance is born out of realistic understanding of human nature and is positive acceptance of what life brings moment by moment. It is true that everyone is entitled to their own legitimate rights, but that does not entitle one to act on impulses based on presumptuous accusations, imagined fears or hidden resentments.
Being human, we are all limited in our understanding of the world we live in and are biased, in one way or another, in our evaluation of people and situations. It seems heroic to jump to conclusions and condemn others who don't share our views or personal taste, but it is, in the last analysis, immature and destructive. If only people put their feet in the shoes of the other before jumping, the world would have become a much nicer place to live in, and China would have been even more so. "Don't get mad, get even!" But a tooth-for-tooth get-even is a mad reaction itself, which only breeds endless strife and unevenness. Of course, before everyone is enlightened in such matters, absolute tolerance is not possible, easily leading to massive cowardice and inaction, for example, when there is a war on the national scale.
On an individual level, tolerance is not cowardice nor pretension. When faced with the ultimate death that awaits each one at the end of life's journey, it feels so futile and unnecessary wasting our allowed precious time arguing over who is right or who is wrong, politically or personally. All human truths are relative any way, and are very much restricted by linear time and circumstances. Although I don't quite agree with what you have said on politics, I still respect your views as a political dissident and like your personality as an honest and generous individual. I love Hy00 because it tolerates different political or academic views just as it embraces different personalities in a humorous and big-hearted way.
Isn't it great to belong to a web that can embody global tolerance and individual humility which will be so necessary if humanity is to survive? Isn't great being a fellow fool and laughing at one's own inadequacies in the mirror of others' forbearance?
Thank you for being a fellow netizen and, particularly, a fellow fool :)
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Wow! Now I am really touched. I am almost speechless. Please allow me...
作者：datou - 2000/04/29 21:25:25
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Please allow me to switch into Chinese. 尽管我的中文也很烂，但毕竟是母语，吵架时比较得心应手一些。
首先，我要说的是，我相当认同你就忍让（forbearance）、宽容（tolerance）、不宽容（intolerance）的观点，尽管我永远也不可能叙述得这样透彻。我们两人的政治观点可能不同，但在为人之道上，应该是有很多相近之处的。
有一点我希望你能清楚：我并不赞成以眼还眼、以牙还牙的报仇心态。这么说吧，即使是那些在集权统治中犯下滔天罪行、双手沾满鲜血的人，如果有朝一日受到审判，我也不会赞同将他们判处死刑。我更希望他们能有机会在狱中回想自己罪恶的过去，能有机会发现自己的天良。
诚然，本人的涵养工夫极差，而且有草率下结论的毛病，经常忍不住就会跳将起来，以至于时时事后道歉。尽管我本人未能做到对所有人宽容，从理性的角度来说，我极为赞同人应该对他人宽容的观点。但我不赞成一味地退让；我希望在自己或同类的基本权利受到威胁时，每个人都能站出来说话，而不是一味地忍受，或者是在暗地里庆幸倒霉的不是自己。
我不赞同对任何一个政权宽容。作为一个手无寸铁、白无一用的布衣书生，我唯一能做的就是对我眼里的不公正、对在我看来的邪恶势力“口诛笔伐”；的确，在这一点上，我自觉远远没有尽到我应尽的责任。
另外对有一类人我很难表现出宽容，即那些在我看来是站在恶势力的一边知识分子，那些依吾之见属于昧着良心助纣为虐、欺骗百姓的读书人。
我对你的学识、风度、幽默感心仪已久，能和你及渔夫兄同为“傻瓜”，实实在在是我三生有幸。
【汉英论坛】的确非常难得。我也经常在网上游荡，似这样高手如云但又能平等讨论的场所真可谓绝无仅有！我虽时常扮演丑角，但决无有意破坏此风水宝地之心，此节我想你和诸位网友都应该是有数的。
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谁跟您吵架啦？
作者：tian xin - 2000/04/29 22:26:51
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And allow me to switch back to English, too, to be worthy of our bilingual forum :) I feel easier fighting in a foreign language, as if one can say whatever one wants to without taking linguistic responsibilities.
Basically agree with what you said. Clowns think alike. It is easy to generalize but things are often more complicated than they seem to be. Unless one takes note of diverse situations and makes assessment accordingly, no exposition of the issue can be complete. I believe in the basic goodness of human nature. Some people act unpardonably, but there's often more to their motivations than is seen on the surface or even what they themselves realize consciously. When I said I refused to judge, I didn't mean that I would abandon principles. Nor do I think that one should retreat when challenged by social injustice.
When I talked about tolerance, I talked mainly on an individual level. Just to give you one example: this time when I went to visit my family in China, I had to face the fact that during those few years of my overseas stay, I had lost several of my close relatives who had loved me dearly and who, of course, like everybody else, had been limited and imperfect in their personality, sometimes driving the others mad. I felt a great vacancy in life without their presence and the only comfort I could derive from such losses was that I didn't add to their unhappiness by speaking or behaving rudely while they were alive, therefore fortunately avoided the double pain of everlasting regrets.
And one has to try not to brood on one's own mistakes either. We'll have to be tolerant with ourselves, too, sometimes. Everything changes, including one's own views and attachments. Perhaps, there's one exception: when one day you decide to quit politics, we'll all wish that that had not taken place. Your indispensible role is a bright mirror and your bilingual talents invaluable assets.
Thank you, Datou.
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Hi Tian Xin, please forgive me for not getting into more
作者：datou - 2000/04/29 22:58:06
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soul-to-soul discussions. I only want to add one thing -- I do not have a single shred of doubt that our common feelings are much much more and stronger than our disagreements.
Have a good night, I assume!
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Haven't even washed up dishes for lunch, having been distracted by your politics:) Good night.
作者：tian xin - 2000/04/29 23:10:16
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thanx! have to do the taxex, already too late. late.
作者：zy - 2000/04/29 14:30:57
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多谢正兄美言！小弟说话不知分寸，如有得罪还乞勿怪！大头再拜
作者：大头 - 2000/04/29 10:34:07
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至感，再谈，大头兄！
作者：正 - 2000/04/29 14:32:49
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非常好。美感很强，也很受启发。非常感谢。希望看到更多。
作者：北美 - 2000/04/27 17:58:15
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别开蹊径，真是新颖！而且
作者：hz - 2000/04/27 18:35:31
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哈代的诗确实和诗经里多见的亦爱亦怨、含而不露的情诗味道相近，这样对译很妙！Thanks! Happy weekend to you, too!
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太受刺激！
作者：water - 2000/04/28 03:34:12
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续“太受刺激”
作者：water - 2000/04/28 03:50:55
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这论坛寂寞高手实在太多，每每来此必大受刺激！不明白各位高手何以能将中英文都学到这份上！！我都不知自己这二十几年干嘛去了！佩服之极而汉颜不已！
罢也，罢也，今日以后万万不能再来此受震撼了！
既抓不住“汉英”只好投身“恋恋”去也！嘻嘻！
各位学兄周末愉快！学业之余可别忘了锻炼身体！
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承诸君前辈谬奖, 实不敢当. 在此坛受各位教益良多. 谢过了!
作者：WQ - 2000/04/28 07:49:47
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xy君"高寿"二字, 真要折杀我了. 小子属Toy story II里那个老掉钱的扑满, 也算是八十年代的新一代, 岂能是遗老遗少:-) 底子薄, 只是乘着粉碎四人帮的春风上个村校. 却不是私塾, 就是那种复式班, 一二年级的学生在同一间屋上课, 背靠背, 一边教一加二, 另一边抄春天来了, 现在某些山区或船户必然还有.
做化学实验烦了, 嗅氯仿甲醇昏了, 就上网下载诗经来读(我只找到风雅颂之风, 不过已是精华所在了). 比之印刷本, 很有趣的, 不少字不在国标代码里, 比如开篇末段就这样处理:
参差荇菜, 左右1 之. 1: 毛加草头, 音帽, 有选择之意.
窈窕淑女, 钟鼓乐之.
这不机缘凑巧, 诸君高手在汉英论哈代, 正如hz君所说, 觉得此诗和诗经国风特近, 就试了一下. xy君要学古文, 我怎敢当老师, 不对, 是"岂为不敢, 为不能也". 要是xy君读了国风, 就知我的戏译中有哪些句子是完全照抄的. 此译之难是在于自己造句时必得极像原文味道, 这一点我可以说毫无功底, 比如最后两行, 我就不知语法是否对; "今日"二字, 那时候人用不用?
我因时间不允许, 人又不勤, 读不了太多古文, 我是很想读的. 对中文的提高太有好处了. 不过xy君如学古文, 我倒建议要读就读汉往前的文献. 四书五经, 诸子百家, 那是中文的根. 就以诗为例, 唐诗固好, 也太多了, 含金量就要打折扣. 而且唐诗是格律诗, 比较起来, 诗经才是自由诗, 白话诗, 民谣, 只是时代久远, 有些当时的口语咱们不懂了, 才觉得诗经不好读. 李太白他们还在做格律诗之余做古风呢, 可见古诗的魅力. 诗经可真是无价之宝. 辗转反侧, 逃之夭夭, 赳赳武夫, 鹊巢鸠占, 忧心忡忡, 宴尔新婚, 手如柔荑等等, 信誓旦旦, 投桃报李, 一日不见, 如隔三秋, 等等等等, 哪儿来的? 诗经中来的. 也就用这个形式, 以"月出之光"对译the moonlight才不觉得太乏味, 不然非加个形容词才感觉象中文诗.
在下只是喜欢语言, 但那远非我的本行, 在此班门弄斧了. 很欣赏和感谢本坛诸君的才华学识和君子之德, 谢谢汉英和诸位.
WQ
(附: 俺用的都是西文标点, 因为怕俺的计算机发脾气, 没别的意思.)
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听君一席话，胜读十年书！
作者：XY - 2000/04/28 09:20:58
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我得省下多少学费、多少书费呀！好，从省出的学费中，请您客！时间、地点，您定！
我从没见过四书五经啥样子，三字经是批林批孔那阵作为批判的靶子看的，心中暗暗觉得很有道理呀！
马上行动，去找诗经！谢WQ近邻弟弟！
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对不起，这几天搞单干，没时间上课。现在匆匆一瞥，就知老弟的中文功底好。后生可畏呀^)^
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/04/28 10:57:26
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《诗经》鄙人没读过多少篇，只记得第一篇《氓》里“将子无怒，秋以为期”、“今我来思，雨雪霏霏”等句子。所以一看您的大作，便觉得是从诗经来的。
您中文那么好，可否给我看看楼下拙译？
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Meunique
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谢xy君(对不起, 不大习惯xy姊或xy大姊的称谓)盛情; 读隐老前辈的飞蛾; 对不起, 掺合在一块, 请勿见怪.
作者：WQ - 2000/04/29 13:23:18
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xy君, 您的北京话和您的豪爽很让人过瘾. 不过说到吃, 我想得不行的还是南京的芦蒿炒肉丝(这可是红楼贾府菜单里的!), 唉, 现在正是芦蒿上市. 这儿最讨厌的就是蔬菜单调. 绿豆芽自己倒做得不错了, 上个星期做豆腐, 没全成功, 石膏的量摸不准. 话又说回来, 有请不吃, 圣贤也不干那, 万一您要来看看国际奥委会总部, 做弟弟的可不会放这揩油的机会, 要您不想来, 咱就先记着这一顿, 来日方长啊.
隐老前辈的话小子可担当不起, 语言上我是门外汉绝不是自谦. 您的和另一译文才让我较快的理解了原文. 英文我也就主要用来看和写科学论文, 文学的极少看. 谢谢您让我有机会看了飞蛾之死. 我也没找到网上原文, 不过找到一个网站 Life and works of Virginia Woolf: http://orlando.jp.org/VWW/vwbib.html 上面有些她的其他作品, 也许您已经知道了. 这篇网上没有可能也因为版权问题.
读了飞蛾之死我首先想起一个戏谑性的歇后语: 苍蝇撞在玻璃上--前途光明, 没有出路. 确确实实的一种拼命, 徒劳, 又不自知的情境. 如果没什么人把它写成散文, 看到类似现象的人倒不要太多哟(上海话, 多得很). 她把这一多少普通的现象注入生死的主题, 写得那么惊心动魄, 很不简单. 她的描述从博物学的角度说, 也是非常科学和精确的. 而且, 她用铅笔帮助飞蛾的动作, 也是非常真实的心理, 任何一个会注意观察玻璃前飞虫的人, 也许都会伸出他的铅笔, 我是说, 都会有去影响这一过程的心理. 但不是所有人都只是伸出铅笔. 这儿我同意tian xin的conclusion. 我也同意tian xin君译文一文字总体更可读, 不过文二总体精确度好象比一大些. 要我细看, 细评实在非我所能, 只有几个看法, 不一定对, 请隐老过目:
1. 文里的飞蛾白天出来, 但不是一个特殊的品种, 文中也说夜蛾是their own species. 生物学上蛾类蝶类分得很清, 习性就是一夜一昼. 这个蛾子也应是夜行的, 因为偶然的原因, 白天失去了shadow歇息的所在, 到了亮处, 迷了性 disorientated, 其实这样一来他的命运就已经注定了, 窗前一幕只是一种演绎形式. 译文似乎让人误解这一点, 以为是专门的白日蛾. 因此开头译成: 白天出来的飞蛾也叫飞蛾可不大恰当.
2. 白嘴鸦结网, soaring round the tree-tops UNTIL ...a vast net..., soar 似乎还有攀升的意思, 到呈现一张网有个过程, 所以用了until, 联系到他们重复俯冲和向天的过程, 这儿soar...until所写的就是"网又突然抛向空中"的具体内容. 二译都没有until所说明的动态.
3. 文中flutter一词,因出现段落和译文不同, 有几个译法, 鼓翼, 拍翅振羽, 蹬腿, 拍打双羽. 不过到我脑子里的那个词, 是扑腾. 如作者说, 一只蛾子, 除了飞, 还能做什么? 而这种情况下, 所谓的飞, 不就是扑腾吗? 除了扑腾, 他还能做什么? 开始是扑腾, 最后的挣扎也是扑腾. 我感觉上面的词不怎么能形容出可怜的蛾子倒底在干什么.
4. As often as he crossed the pane, I could fancy that..., 译文二理解不如一, 开头 asleep in the shadow of the curtain, 应该是文二的理解, 其余高手们都论及了.
隐老见笑了. 小子得回去吃晚饭了.
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