walker 于 2000/06/01 00:38:21 发表在 汉英
Here is an example:
1.If god exists, then he is omnipotent.
2. if god is omnipotent, then he can do anything.
3. Either god can create a rock that he cannot lift, or he cannot.
4. if god can create a rock that he cannot lift, then there is sth that god cannot do, namely, lift the things he can create.
5. if god cannot create a rock that he cannot lift, then there is sth. that god cannot do, namely, create a rock that he cannot lift.
6。 there is something that god cannot do.
7. god is not omnipotent.
8. god does not exist.
Can anybody find out what's wrong with this argument?
the argument is a valid argument which is logic, but what's wrong with it?????? answer is coming up tomorrow.
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another examply to prove that god does not exist.
作者:walker - 2000/06/01 00:45:04
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1. if god exist, then he is perfectly good and omnipotent.
2. if god is perfectly good, then he prevents the existence of as much evil as he can.
3. if god is omnipotent, then he can prevent the existence of all evil.
4. if god exists, then the prevents the existence of all evil.
5. evil exists.
6. god does not exist.
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It's the Christian god omnipotent ?
作者:The Agnostic - 2000/06/01 16:20:46
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Did the Christian god know ahead of time the outcome of the "apple" experiement?
(1)God vs free will.
(i) God did not, or could not, predict the outcome of a "free will"
decision. God 0, Free Will 1.
(ii) God did know ahead of time what the outcome would have been. He was just
having fun manipulating people.
(2) God vs the snake.
Did god know ahead of time that the snake is going to tempt
Adam and Eve ? If he didn't, that god is a very naive person, letting
evil sleep next to him. If he did, then he was setting a trap.
So Adam and Eve should be found not guilty by reason of
"entrapment".
(3) k and k+1
Proof by Mathematical induction. If case k is true and case k+1
is true , then the whole series is true.
The Pope has to apologize for an event k as false, which the church once
claim was a direct communicat from god. The Pope then went on
to apolozie for events k+1, k+2 etc... as all false. So, were (and are)
they the spokeman of god or are they not ?
(4) Galileo. Did God change his mind ?
Galileo was condemned by the Church as a heretic. Since the church
got it's directive from god, presumably god must have thought
that Galileo was wrong. Several hundred years later, the church
admitted they were wrong. So did god change his mind ? Galileo
must have been either right or wrong and god must have know that
right from the start ? Was god trying to fool us or what?
Unfortunately most of the examples I can think of deal
with the Catholic church. I am sure if you look around
long and hard enough you will find similar examples from many other
religions.
Assuming there are 4 billion people in the world and they
are divided into 4 religious groups. Suppose Group III has the
right idea, then what happens to the 3 billion people in Groups I,
II and IV. All the sacrifies they made, they faith they adhered
to, would all have been done in vain . All the religious war
they thought, all the killings and persecutions they have done
in god's name, have been done under false pretenses.
What is religions usual defence ? The voice of desention is
the voice of evil, their is the true voice of god, so those who
speak of reason must be burn as followers of darkness.
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i'll talk about the free will and evil thing later on. it's good question to point it out.
作者:walker - 2000/06/01 21:24:15
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Interesting! I guess it only shows that logic is not universally applicable.
作者:he zi - 2000/06/01 09:18:26
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这个论证就等于说:如果上帝无所不能,他就应该能创造出能把自己打败、因而表明自己并非无所不
能的东西。怎么解释?好象逻辑思维本身是有内禀的奇点(“陷阱”)的,在此应用逻辑推理只能走
进自相矛盾的怪圈。(是不是“全称判断不能反过来应用于自身”?--凭记忆瞎说,不必当真。)
Waiting for your revelation! :-)
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But firt thing's first,
作者:xy - 2000/06/01 10:15:33
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did god claim to be omnipotent?
I have full respect for religious belief. Hope no one is offended by my question.
I cannot detect any problem in the argument. I am beaten. Waiting for your enlightenment.
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this is a philosophy question, has nothing to do with religion.
作者:walker - 2000/06/01 21:22:50
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可能是违反矛盾律而致的逻辑错误吧:自相矛盾或曰逻辑矛盾。
作者:px - 2000/06/01 10:34:06
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仔细看看第三句!:) 咱是猜想,愿早闻其详!谢谢!
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what does an insomniac agnostic dyslectic do?
作者:xinqi - 2000/06/01 11:01:02
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answer: stays up all night wondering if there is a dog.
作者:xq - 2000/06/02 01:35:12
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Nothing is wrong. Church is church, science is science(including logic). Better isolated.
作者:wq - 2000/06/01 11:34:36
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the answer. (the question has nothing to do with religion, there r some other way to prove god does exist.
作者:walker - 2000/06/01 21:17:39
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wow,,,we really have some smart people here. When u read the argument, there is nothing wrong with it. It's totally a valid logically argument. But there is a trap inside the argument. However, people tend to overlook the definition of word--omnipotence, which means god has the unlimited power. HOWEVER, GOD IS OMNIPOTENT BY DEFINITION THAT GOD CAN DO ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN DESCRIBE WITHOUT BEING CONTRADICTORY YOURSELF. The premises stated above is incoherent. God cannot do sth that is incoherent.
:-)
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谢谢!很长见识!
作者:px - 2000/06/02 06:32:50
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上帝的无所不能,只停留在其人为定义的层面,只有在与自身能力不相矛盾的事情面前,上帝才是万能的。
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similar questions, can u get this one?
作者:walker - 2000/06/01 21:21:30
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1. if god exists, then he is perfectly good and omnipotent.
2. if god is perfectly good, then he prevents the existence of as much evil as he can.
3. if god is omnipotent, then he can prevent the existence of all evil.
4. if god exists, then he prevents the existence of all evil.
5. if god exists, then evil does not exist.
6. evil exists.
7. god does not exist.
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okay, try again...
作者:he zi - 2000/06/01 22:13:22
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这儿涉及上帝的善恶属性问题,应该就跟宗教有关了。有的宗教哲学,例如道家,认为 omnipotent 的那位 being 非善非恶,超越善恶对 立,因而就绕开了上面的诘难。
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供批判。
作者:tian xin - 2000/06/01 22:41:36
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If God is perfectly good and omnipotent, that implies He is absolute and infinite, and therefore is beyond the opposites of good and evil. For the Absolute and Infinite belong to the non-dual order of being. If you take Absolute as the counterpart of the relative, then the Absolute is no longer absolute, but a relative entity of the relative. If you take the Infinite as the opposite of the finite, then the Infinite has already become the second part of the finite, and is therefore no longer infinite.
Good and evil belong to the domain of Maya which is part of God's Leyla (Game and Play). The universal Self appearing in its secondary role on the stage does not mean that's all It is. Its taking upon itself the limitations of manifold experience does not limit It to such limitations.
Perfect Goodness of God is a concept from the perspective of the Absolute, from which there is no such thing as evil, but relative degrees of the Good. Evil is a product of the relative world of experience, and therefore does not overlap the perfectly good of the Absolute, and cannot be used to prove the existence of God--the perfectly good and omnipotent.
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U mean God is just looking on beyond the strife between good and evil although He is all-powerful(omnipotent)?
作者:Logic - 2000/06/01 23:15:36
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Interesting!
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It could lead to quite involved spiritualistic discussions again if I plunge into the grass heap once more :)
作者:tian xin - 2000/06/01 23:33:05
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Stay beyond the beyond :)
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哲学的尽头便是宗教,从可知变成不可知,从浅入深,最后不能自拔,于是乎,又变得幼稚起来。比如,马克思说世界是运动的,只有相对的静止,但他又将人类的最终目标定为共产主义,这本身便是自相矛盾的事情。
作者:Last Hermit - 2000/06/02 11:43:53
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比如,我们说上帝是万能的,而我们居然又用我们的眼光(相对来说极端无能)去看待问题,并设一条件去推理之。
既然上帝是万能的,那么我们无能的人根本没有办法去理解万能的上帝,所以也不可能想象万能的上帝能做什么。
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Meunique
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道可道,非常道。非常道非幼稚之道。名可名,非常名;非常名非不可知之名。
作者:tian xin - 2000/06/02 19:35:57
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“道隐于小成,言隐于荣华。”故有运动静止之对立,过程目标之矛盾。故曰:道可道,非常道。
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大家说的都很好,但是还请从哲学的角度下手,提示:what is perfectly good? how do u describe it?
作者:walker - 2000/06/03 19:32:45
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理发师的头由谁来理?
作者:无言 - 2000/06/05 07:08:57
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记得在逻辑学中,这种情况称为“逻辑悖论”,这样的悖论有很多。有一个著名的
“理发师”悖论,大意如下:
某个村子里有一个理发师,他声称:
1) 他将负责给村子里所有不给自己理发的人理发;而且
2) 不给村子里给自己理发的人理发。
请问:理发师的头由谁来理?(A=>~A)
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