"修行"是religious renunciation吗?
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Newer 于 1999/10/16 17:39:09 发表在 汉英
好象religious renunciation只是修行人的可能的外在表现之一？
就是说，按我的理解，修行的人看上去像在religious renunciation，但这并不是他刻意追求的。而
religious renunciation的人可能算不上是修行的人。
那么“修行”怎么翻译？
***
好久不来这个好地方了。祝这个论坛越来越好！
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Yes, u'r right! It should be "self-cultivation" or "spirituality"
作者：Owen - 19991016174145
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Re: "修行"是religious renunciation吗
作者：tian xin - 19991016174357
***
I thought the following passages were quite relevant to your question; and post it here for your reference, together
with a draft Chinese translation of mine:
Renunciation may be external or internal. External, or physical, renunciation consists in giving up everything to
which the mind is attached--home, parents, marriage, children, friends, wealth, comforts, and gross enjoyments.
Internal, or mental, renunciatin consists in giving up all cravings, particularly the craving for sensual objects.
Though external renunciation itself is not necessarily accompanied by internal renunciation, it often paves a way
for internal renunciation. Spiritual freedom consists in internal renunciation and not in external renunciation, but
external renunciation is a great aid in achieving internal renunciation. The person who renounces his possessions
disconnects himself from everything that he had or has. This means that the things he renounces are no longer a
source of fresh bindings.
For most persons, external renunciation creates a favorable atmosphere for the wearing out of the ego. An
individual who possesses wealth and power is exposed to a life of indulgence and extravagance. His
circumstances are more favorable for temptations. Man is mostly what he becomes by being chopped, chiseled,
and shaped by the sculptor of environment. Whether or not he can surmount his suuroundings depends upon his
strength of character. If he is strong, he remains free in his thought and action, even in the midst of action and
reaction with his environment. If he is weak, he succumbs to its influence. Even if he is strong, he is likely to be
swept off his feet by a powerful wave of the collective mode of life and thought. It is difficult to withstand the
onslaught of a current of ideas and avoid falling prey to circumstances. If he resists the circumstance, he is likely to
be carried away by some wild wave of collective passion and get caught up in modes of thought that he is unable
to renounce. Though it is difficult to resist and overcome these influences and surroundings, it is easier to escape
from them. Many persons would live a chaste and straightforward life if they were not surrounded by luxuries and
temptations. The renunciation of all superfluous things helps the wearing out of the ego and therefore is
contributory to the life of freedom.
However, real spiritual experience which is to enliven and energize life cannot be a reaction to the stern and
uncompromising demands made by the realities of life. Those without the capacity for adjustment to the flow of
life have a tendency to recoil from the realities of life and seek shelter and protection in a self-created fortress of
illusion. Such a reaction is an attempt to perpetuate one's separate existence by protecting it from the demands
made by life. It can only give a pseudo solution to the problems of life by providing a false sense of security and
self-completeness. It is not even an advance toward the real and lasting solution; on the contrary, it is a sidetrack
from the true spiritual path. Man will be dislodged again and again from his illusory shelters by fresh and
irresistible waves of life, and will invite upon himself fresh forms of suffering by seeking to protect his separate
existence through escape.
Jesus Christ pointed out the way to spiritual experience when He said, "leave all and follow me." This means that
man must leave limitations and establish him in the infinite life of God. A real spiritual experience involves not only
realization of the nature of the soul while traversing the higher planes of consciousness but also a right attitude
toward worldly duties. If it loses its connection with the different phases of life, what we have is a neurotic
reaction that is far from being a spiritual experience.
--adapted from "Discourses" by Meher Baba, Sheriar Press, 1987. pp6, 42-43
中译：舍弃可以是外在的，也可以是内在的。外在（或物质）舍弃包括放弃大脑所执著的一切－
家庭、父母、子女、朋友、财富、舒适及肉体享受。内在（或思想）舍弃包括放弃所有欲望，特
别是对感官对象的追求。
虽然外部放弃本身未必能带来内部放弃，但它往往起到为内部放弃铺路的作用。精神自由在于内
部放弃，而外部放弃是达到内部放弃的重要辅助。一个人放弃了财产，便割断了与其过去或现在
所拥有的一切的联系。这意味着他所放弃的东西已不再是制造新束缚的根源。
对大多数人来讲，外部放弃会创造有利环境，来消除自我。一个拥有财富和权力的人易受奢侈放
纵生活方式的影响。他的经济状况使他容易受诱惑。一个人通常是其环境这个雕塑家所劈砍、凿
雕和塑造的作品。他是否能超越自身环境，这要取决于其性格的坚强性。他坚强的话，会保持思
想和行动的自由，哪怕是处于环境的作用与反作用之中。如果他软弱，他便屈服于环境的影响。
即使他性格坚强，他也有可能被集体的生活和思想方式之强大浪涛所冲击。抵挡思潮的冲击并避
免成为环境的牺牲品是很困难的。即使他抵制住环境影响，他也有可能被某些集体情绪的迅猛浪
潮冲昏头脑，而陷入他无法放弃的思想方式中。虽然一个人很难抵制和战胜这些影响与环境，但
却容易逃避它们。很多人如果不处于豪华与诱惑的包围之中，则能过纯洁和正直的生活。放弃所
有多余的东西能帮助消除自我，因此有助于自由的生活。
但是，给生活注入生气与活力的精神体验不可能是对现实的严峻不调和要求的反应。那些无能力
适应生活进程的人倾向于从现实中退避，去自造的虚幻营垒中寻求掩蔽和保护。这种反应是试图
通过躲避生活的挑战，来延续个体的孤立存在。它提供一种虚假的安全感和自我完整性，只能对
生活问题提供一种错误的答案。它是对真正的精神历程的背离。人类将一次次地从幻想的庇护
中，被生活新的无法抗拒的浪潮抛出，通过逃避寻求保护其孤立存在，这样给自己招致新形式的
痛苦。
耶酥基督说“放弃一切，跟随我”时，便指出了通往精神体验之路。也就是说，人必须放弃自身
局限性，立身于上帝的无限生命之中。真正的精神体验不仅涉及到在经历意识的高级阶段时，对
灵魂本质的领悟，同时也包括对世俗责任的正确态度。如果它失去了与生活各个方面的联系，那
么它只能是一种神经质反应，远远谈不上是精神体验。
Note: 根据具体情况，我建议把“修行”试译为religious renunciation, religious practice, spiritual
renunciation, spiritual practice; 再宽泛些，译作religious path, spiritual path.
欢迎各位同行拿出更贴切的译法；更欢迎各位对tian xin的中译Discourses提出宝贵意见。多谢！
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More about "修行"
作者：古月 - 19991016174550
***
修行, From a Buddhist perspective, its meaning is fivefold：
(1) To practice; to carry out or perform (In Sanskrit, they say "pratipatti," "prapatti," "adhyacaradhigama," or
"prayoga").
(2) To endeavor.
(3) Penance, austerities. (Maybe this is where "renunciation" fits in.)
(4) To apply oneself diligently to meditation.
(5) To keep the precepts.
Much as it's essentially a Buddhist term, we do find similar concepts in other belief systems as well. In
Confucianism, "self-cultivation" is a general term for the whole process aimed at recovering one's "childlike heart"
and serving heaven. In Christianity, "spirituality" is the key word which refers both to the process of personal
search for meaning and the state of salvation. In Islamism, some Muslims practice "Sufism," kind of mystic Islamic
belief and practice in which Muslims seek to find divine love and knowledge through direct personal experience of
God.
So, how do I put "修行" into English? To a Buddhist, I'd say "pratipatti;" to a Confucianist, "xiu-shen"
(self-cultivation); to a Christian, "spirituality;" and to a Muslim, "practice Sufism." All in all, "spirituality" and
"self-cultivation" are the two most common English terms that would first strike me when prompted by the
Chinese keyword "修行."
Gu Yue
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Still more about "修行"
作者：tian xin - 19991017170929
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Wonderful article!
I did some research and discovered that修行originated from the Sanskrit term "Sadhana", meaning: practice, striving,
endeavour; directing toward the goal.
"Sadhana" came down from Vedic scriptures and is used by both Hindus and Buddhists to refer to their spiritual
practice or discipline.
对大多数人来讲，Sadhana（中译为“成就法”或“修行”）是指对宗教仪式或繁文缛节的遵守。在更深层的*
庖迳希ǎ海*1）知识之道；（2）行动之道；（3）信爱之道。这虽然只是从印度教的角度来解释
Sadhana，但在某种意义上，却包括了所有宗教修行的主要方面。
因此，把“修行”译作practice或spiritual practice或to practice spirituality应该是可以的。或者直接音译为“挲得
那”，这在某些宗教圈子中也应该是修行者们之间心照不宣的用语。
I have an Aussie friend who calls himself a “practicing Buddhist” (note practicing here). All his family are deeply
interested in Tibetan Buddhism. Every weekend, his daughter will ring and check on him, "Dad, are you keeping up
with your PRACTICE?"
Of course, "practice" here means mainly "chanting mantras, meditating, keeping the precepts, cultivating compassion
for all sentient beings etc."
For many others, 修行can also be a pathless path, by which I mean one loves God (or the Good, the True, and the
Beautiful) by loving one's
neighbours. One can discharge one's worldly responsibilities faithfully and honestly without having to be attached to
the results or to worldly things. In other words, one can "practice spirituality" by being in the world but not of it.
Thanks!
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Thanks for the additional yogic jargon!
作者：古月 - 19991017171341
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Here you can find a Sanskrit-Chinese glossary: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/acmuller/bdict/ind1-skt.htm
Enjoy surfing!
Gu Yue
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谢!原来这是涉及这么多内容的词汇……
作者：Newer - 19991017171556
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原来是涉及这么多内容的词汇。
我想就此引出一个有关翻译的话题，决非想谈论宗教本身。
我在翻译中经常难以搞清楚自己的角色--比如，如果本人心中认为“宗教是修行的工具，不能算是修行的目
的”，那么在翻译时就难免要跳到书中演带有自己观点的角色，有时甚至将原文中原本看上去顺理成章的思
路，凸现出不能自圆其说的痕迹。
前苏联著名导演斯坦尼斯拉夫斯基说（如有记错敬请原谅），演戏要对角色有距离感地体会，才能表现出原汁*
丁*
从早年到现在，我都觉得“有距离感地体会”是非常难以做到的。而且，我发现许多作者本身甚至做不到“没
有距离地体会自己说的是什么”，更谈不上是“有距离感地体会”了。他简直就是在胡说。
这样的文章，更有翻译出来的重要性。这能算是翻译难题吗？
如果各位也认为我思路混乱到“自己都不知道在说什么”，那我非常道歉！
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要看在什么层次上谈论这个话题了
作者：古月 - 19991017171825
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－－ 我在翻译中经常难以搞清楚自己的角色--比如，如果本人心中认为
－－“宗教是修行的工具，不能算是修行的目的”，那么在翻译时就难免
－－ 要跳到书中演带有自己观点的角色，有时甚至将原文中原本看上去
－－ 顺理成章的思路，凸现出不能自圆其说的痕迹。－－Newer
如果是粗放式的理解问题，那就需要看懂原文，抓住原著的中心思想，理顺思路，
尽量不受自己主观理念的左右。
如果是本来就有争议的微妙问题，尤其是对古典原著的解读，在深层次上个人透
过自身的修养对原著进行认识、再认识是在所难免的。
这种情况自古有之，否则世上怎么会有“原教旨主义”、“新教义”乃至“异端
邪说”等多如牛毛的教派、宗派呢？究竟什么叫“原作意图”？到了这个层次，
就很难扯清了。这在解读界和翻译界都是很有争议的。已经成了一门深奥的哲学
分支叫“经典解读学”(hermeneutics)。
这方面，中国的传统与西方略有不同。长期以来，我们比较依赖钦定本权威。某
种解读一俟经过权威认定，人们就倾向于把他当作“颠扑不破”的祖训。因此，
无论是作为国教的儒学，还是民间流传的道学，其宗派和教派数量与基督教和伊
斯兰教是不能相提并论的。
其实，任何对经典的解读，从一开始就代表了解读者当时的悟性，只是某些人的
悟性在权威的推销下逐步为大众接受而已。又谁能断言自己或他人与原作者之间
的定位究竟是恰到好处还是相去太远呢？
所谓“演戏要对角色有距离感”无非是让演员不要演自己，设法进入角色。这里
实际上涉及了“如何解读角色”的问题。作为演戏，导演对角色的解读，就是演
员需要认定的距离。所以，不同的导演可以导出不同的“宋江”，不同的“莎翁”，
不同的“贾宝玉”。哪个角色更象角色，哪个角色更象演员？观众又有自己对原
角色的既定解读。大众奖获得者一般是能够获得最大数量观众认同的导演和演员；
学院奖得主自然是能够引起多数专业评委共鸣的。
那么具体到翻译，译者对原文的解读就相当于导演和演员对角色的解读，理应尽
可能跳出自我，进入原作者的角色。但是究竟效果如何，尤其是在深层次上，既
取决于译者的专业背景和认识深度，也取决于读者和评委的认同。所谓“海水不
可斗量”，结论很难明断。倒是可以允许各抒己见，看看能否自圆其说。总之，
“翻译”与“解读”的过程，是译者接受全面检阅和评判的过程。同样，裁判在
评判他人的同时，也在评判自己。从这个意义上讲，译者和读者面对译文各自定
位的现象是在所难免的。译者只能尽其所能深化自己对历史、文化背景的认识，
程度究竟如何，咱相信“文如其人”、“译如其人”；不见其人，仍如其人。这
确实是个扑朔迷离的语言哲学问题。大概是很难辩得清的。
此前〖汉英论坛〗也曾讨论过“文本解读”的问题，似乎有点关联。特摘其中一
段附后，权作补充参考。
古月
附件：“文本解读”(text interpretation or hermeneutics)
“文本解读”是同一语种内对不同历史阶段作品进行诠释的过程。不断听到有人
推出“成功破译易经”、“道德经正解”、“唐诗详析”、“《圣经》大全”
之类的，这些都属“文本解读学”范围。什么“破译”、“正解”、“大全”，
“大典”之类的，都是自诩“解读权威”之举，说穿了只是提供另一种“解读”
罢了。正因为这种自封的权威太多了，所以一本《圣经》才衍生出多如牛毛的各
种宗教和宗派，谁都声称自己对“神”的“破译”是最正统的。现代解读学家
Roland Barthes 有一篇著名论文，题目是“The Death of Author(作者之死)”，
其中心思想是：即使是人们一向认为是某文本当然权威的作者，对他所用语言的
解读都不能自封权威，因为是语言造就了作家而不是相反。那么作者以外的诠释
者就更不用说了。因为英文里头“权威(authority)”一词与“作者(author)”为
同源词，所以作者与权威才有那么直接的关系。既然作为当然权威的作者都已
被判死刑，哪里还有权威？(When the author is dead, where's the author-ity?)
这一点，似乎老子早就想到了，因为他生前就已主动放弃了对“道”进行最后
解释的权威地位。虽说《道德经》本身是对“道”与“德”所作的某种说明，
但是一开头的“道可道，非常道”(If Dao could be interpreted, this Dao is
no longer what it's intended to mean.)，就相当于作者的序言声明：以下所布
之道仅供参考，因为真正的“道”是只可意会不可言传的。既然作者自己都放
弃了文本解读权威，谁有资格以权威自居去判断他人“可解不可解”或“解读
对不对”呢？
当然，这种观点也可能被人利用，推向极端。例如，有人就说，既然权威已死，
怎么解读都成，那我把God解读成dog行不行？这就涉及另一个问题：解读的目的
是什么？是留给自己享用还是希望引起社会共鸣？如果只是为自己享受，那是你的
自由，谁也干涉不了。如果要想引起社会共鸣，那你总得研究读者对象的口味吧？
总得估计一下你的解读能够得到多少知音吧？“权威(作者)已死”是一种化一为多
的哲学。并不是真的没有权威了，而是揭示了“权威”由少数作者向广大读者移交
的一种趋势。只要有听众，有读者，你的解读就有了一定的价值。所以咱反复强调
的是“读者对象”：“是否进入角色”，“原汁原味保持得怎么样”都应由他们来
决定。
那么作为译者，是否与原作者保持距离，是否进入原作的角色，不是个别权威，更
不是个别非权威可以说了就算的。判断的主观成份比重很大。译者的努力最多只能
争取尽可能大的“主观判断”之和－－也就相当于“客观判断”了。况且这里“尽
可能大的‘主观判断’之和”还有“大众”和“学院”等不同层次呢，可见其中的
扑朔迷离。
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对不起，本人在“解读”修行时，不知道您也在“自圆其说”
作者：tian xin - 19991017172147
***
有“古云亦云”的地方，请包涵。
谢谢！
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That's all right! You're most welcome!
作者：古月 - 19991017172440
***
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Re: “宗教是修行的工具，不能算是修行的目的”
作者：tian xin - 19991017174637
***
宗教不是修行的工具，修行本身乃是工具，是达到目的的手段。其目的，不同的宗教派别则称谓不同。
如在佛教，印度教，耆那教等宗教中，修行的目的是排除旧业，使新业不生，从而脱离轮回之苦，获得解脱
（Liberation）
道教的修道目的是达到浑然无我，心不纳物，天人合一，人与道同。
基督教强调唯有信赖基督，爱耶酥，才能蒙救称义，获得永生。
古月提到的伊斯兰教中的神秘主义流派苏非主义（Sufism）通过忏悔、禁欲、守贫、信赖安拉、服从安拉旨意
等修行方法，弃除个人意志和个性，达到与安拉的融合。
苏非中有些教团的修行方法之一是通过音乐舞蹈（如著名的dervish dance）。据说舞蹈与精神的循环有关，大
家围着一个圆圈跳舞，旋转，用外部循环激励精神循环，跳跃表示从人的地位进入神的境界，以至内心变为神
圣，达到人神，从而与安拉合一。
另外，无论是翻译，还是其它，理解很重要。而理解需要一定的类似体验或直觉认同。真正理解后，才能保持
距离，忠实地传递原作品的汁味；并在实践中做到知己知彼，隐恶而扬善，择其善者而从之，其不善者而改之
（后半句为题外话）。
Good luck!
谢谢！
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感谢各位指教!这真是深不可测的好地方
作者：Newer - 19991018095708
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看完古先生的文章，忽然回忆起一个想法。
早些时候，古先生问是否可能存在“元语言”？
对此我一直思索，觉得如果要是真的能有，它肯定与“善恶”、“对错”这些附着在自然语言上
的价值观距离很远，甚至可能不能直接用来评价价值观，但至少可以揭示人类思维、行为的深刻
规律，这样也就揭示了价值观的成因。
古先生文中提到的“易经”。我的想法是：它就是“元语言”一个很好的、现成的侯选者。
进一步“溜号”下去，可以推断建造一套新的元语言体系是十分艰巨的事情！
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这样的“溜号”可能会使坛主不高兴吧，可是本人的英语写作能力实在很差，不然就用英语写出
此文了。
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meta, metadata, and metalanguage
作者：古月 - 19991018111109
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好象是确实针对“metadata”的问题探讨过“meta”的原义。但是有没有探寻过您
所提及的那层意义上的“元语言”，似乎没有印象了。“易经”如果能够成为“现
成的侯选者”固然是中华民族的大幸，但是从形而上 (metaphysical)的领域寻求
“元语言”，恐怕会永远流于咬文嚼字的形式了。如果是这样，"God"、"Alah"、
"Yahweh"、"Dao"、"logos"、"Dharma"、"无"、"gene"、"atom"...等等，都会提
出申请的。科学家们早已厌倦咬文嚼字了，所以科学领域寻找“元语言”的工作多
半是在生物科学、量子力学、人工智能领域进行的，试图“破译”造物主造物、启智
的奥秘。当然，您完全可以通过咬文嚼字的方式用易经的“阴”、“阳”去解读人
工智能的二进位，基因的双螺线和原子的两极性。只是这种形而上的二元论同样
也在其它文明形态和信仰系统存在过，只比混沌状态稍稍清晰一点而已，能够俯瞰
森林并知道那里有树，却并不一定能够听懂树在说些什么。因此科学探索应该是永
无止境的。只有世界的末日才是科学探索的终结；反之亦然。
确实扯远了，超出了本人的认知范围，抱歉！还是回到现实吧。“meta, metadata, and metalanguage”
(元、元数据、元语言)现在主要还是信息技术领域用得较多。以下是有关定义，转载
此处供参考。
古月
Meta is a prefix that in most information technology usages means "an underlying
definition or description." Thus, metadata is a definition or description of data and
metalanguage is a definition or description of language. Meta (pronounced
MEH-tah in the U.S. and MEE-tah in the U.K.) derives from Greek, meaning
"among, with, after, change." Whereas in some English words the prefix indicates
"change" (for example, metamorphosis), in others, including those related to data
and information, the prefix carries the meaning of "more comprehensive or
fundamental."
The Standard Generalized Markup Language (SGML) defines rules for how a document can be
described in terms of its logical structure (headings, paragraphs or idea units, and so forth). SGML is
often referred to as a metalanguage because it provides a "language for how to describe a language." A
specific use of SGML is called a document type definition (DTD). A document type definition spells out
exactly what the allowable language is. A DTD is thus a metalanguage for a certain type of document.
(In fact, the Hypertext Markup Language (HTML) is an example of a document type definition. HTML
defines the set of HTML tags that any Web page can contain.)
The Extensible Markup Language (XML), which is comparable to SGML and modelled on it, describes
how to describe a collection of data. It's sometimes referred to as metadata. A specific XML definition,
such as Microsoft's new Channel Definition Format (CDF), defines a set of tags for describing a Web
channel. XML could be considered the metadata for the more restrictive metadata of CDF (and other
future data definitions based on XML).
In the case of SGML and XML, "meta" connotes "underlying definition" or set of rules. In other usages,
"meta" seems to connote "description" rather than "definition." For example, the HTML tag is
used to enclose descriptive language about an HTML page.
One could describe any computer programming or user interface as a metalanguage for conversing with
a computer. And an English grammar and dictionary together could be said to define (and describe) the
metalanguage for spoken and written English.
Source: http://whatis.com/meta.htm
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I think "religious cultivation" would be OK (more)
作者：seven - 19991026134507
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If we translate it as "religious renunciation",it is not very accurate, though it does contain the training of renunciation, yet it is not the end of the story.
修行 contains, according Buddhist interpretation, three steps: enlightening of oneself, enlightening others,
last, the consummation of the previous two.
So, renunciation is only the first important thing in 修行。即出离心。
Second ,bodhicitta,菩提心，the wish to help all others to reach enlightenment.
Third, right thought,正见，that is, the right understanding of the true nature of the whole universe, only with which can we fulfil the ultimate liberation.
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respond to your question.
作者(Author)：Wish-U-Well - 2007/06/18 00:06:39
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"Xieu Xing" seems to be a way of mentally Self-Taught,Self-trained, Self-Meditated, or Self-Nurtured. And I think the latest one "Self-Nurtured" is probably more suitable.
What do you think?
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I like to join the discussion.
作者(Author)：wish-u-well - 2007/06/18 05:54:17
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"Xiu Xing" may mean a way of "Spiritual Improvement" in religion. It is a process of, but not the final goal of Self-elevation!
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