Last Hermit 于 2000/09/22 09:51:00 发表在 汉英
My Love's Two Eyes of Blue
--by Gustav Mahler, English translation by Lionel Salter
My love's two eyes of blue
have sent me out into the wide world,
I had to bid farewell to the spot I cherish.
O eyes of blue, why did you look at me?
Now grief and sorrow are forever my lot.
I went out in the still of the night,
at dead of night across the gloomy heath.
No one said goodbye to me, goodbye;
my companions were love and grief.
By the road stands a linden-tree:
there at last I found rest in sleep.
Under the linden-tree,
which snowed its blossoms down on me,
I knew naught of life's pain;
all, all was well again--
all, all! Love and grief,
my world, my dream!
两眸碧如海
却那堪、情难再
一别走天涯
天阴阴，云�*�*
怎敌卿卿眉黛
今生常伤怀
夜茫茫、野荡荡
却无祖帐
唯有泪千行
千种风情，万般悲怆
情依依，路长长
菩提树下花作床
悄悄入梦乡
莫悲哀，莫彷徨
原来全是梦一场
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Meunique
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跟贴目录:
like it! 体裁异趣，一般伤怀，又怎一个梦字了得！
作者：he zi - 2000/09/22 10:06:44
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真棒！要用粤语唱呢，还是普通话？另：何谓“祖帐”？
作者：laoliu - 2000/09/22 12:55:23
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普通话。惭愧！不瞒您说，俺不懂乐理，莫说乐理，连五线谱都不懂得看；莫说五线谱，连马勒这个名字好象也没听过！
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/09/22 21:36:32
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【祖帐】 古代送人远行，在野外路旁为饯别而设的帷帐。亦指送行的酒筵。古人出行时祭祀路神曰“祖”，引申为送行。王维《齐州送祖三》诗：“祖帐已伤离，荒城复愁入。”（《辞海》）
本来想再改一下的，如今上有老师、姐姐、兄长，下有妹妹，众口烁金^)^，俺也就不改了。
一点说明：原歌前两段一片凄风苦雨，俺译的时候主要用了汉语拼音的后两个声，即“上声”和“去声”。鉴于古声极难掌握，自作聪明将“阴平”和“阳平”算作“平声”；“上声”和“去声”算作“仄声”。因而，在悲苦的地方用所谓“仄声”；在最后一段，主人公似乎由悲转喜，转用“平声”。
不过，说实在的，自觉不如以前译的When I'm 64，而且很难译，自从天姐贴出来开始，译到昨晚方毕。
不管怎么样，感谢众师长姐妹奉场。
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Meunique
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谢谢！我时时会借粤语的录影带看（普通话的带子较少），发现里面的主题曲通常颇有古文韵味。
作者：laoliu - 2000/09/22 23:46:56
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“捧”场！
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/09/23 00:43:47
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Meunique
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马勒是我的好友
作者：tian xin - 2000/09/23 02:15:51
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But from a past life, maybe? :)
Mahler was a German composer, the greatest of all as far as I am concerned, whose music has been constant inspiration and consolation to me. He is the Shakespeare in the music sphere and one of my heroes in life. If you love classical music, do please get a Mahler symphony CD. I don't know whether they are available in China. I'd be happy to send you one if you really love Mahler music.
Thank you for taking all that trouble to translate the song of a wayfarer. It's superb. I shall try to follow your version while listening to it next time.
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Thanks a lot. But...
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/09/23 09:11:45
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I didn't say that now I still have no idea who he is; only seemed to haven't heard of him before, whom later turned out to be a great Austrian composer and conductor according to my dictionary. Yet I seldom listen to music, whatever kind of it is, or I have no time(Maybe I will get round to it later on the thought that it could be an aid to my translations.). But for me, it is just a piece of cake to get a Mahler, pirated or legal copy. Just 6 yuans for one pirated copy, you know. I thank you very much for your kindness, anyway. And just save that sum of money for the guided trip round the eastern coast of Australia^)^
Mahler, Gustav (1860-1911), Austrian composer and conductor, whose works mark the culmination of postromantic development of the symphony. Mahler was born in Kalischt (modern Kali歵ě), in what is now the Czech Republic. He became artistic director of the Imperial Opera in Vienna, Austria, in 1897. In 1907 Mahler went to New York City, where he conducted at the Metropolitan Opera and with the New York Philharmonic. In his symphonies, Mahler was influenced by German composers Ludwig van Beethoven and Richard Wagner. His use of choral and solo vocal music in the symphony completes the implications of Beethoven's similar procedure and also achieves a musical and dramatic union similar to that sought by Wagner. Mahler's orchestration anticipated the 20th century in its emphasis on the color of individual instruments and small combinations of instruments, and its inclusion of unusual instruments such as the mandolin and harmonium.
The Encarta?Desk Encyclopedia Copyright ?& ? 1998 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
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Meunique
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I have no time FOR THAT. ...an aid IN TRANSLATING!
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/09/23 09:31:20
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Meunique
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插言谈两句Mahler
作者：he zi - 2000/09/23 10:26:12
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你天姐姐可能正梦中神会 Mahler 呢:-) 看见您说到 Mahler 和翻译 我想起有一回翻译诗真是一边听 Mahler 一边翻的，所以忍不住也说 两句。其实填词的时候讲究韵律、节奏感等等已经近音乐了，所以您对古诗词这么有感觉我想应该也很能“没”进音乐里去的。交响乐对中国人来说确实比较 foreign ，因为除非去特意学习和了解，通常 我们不熟悉它的结构，四个乐章好几十分钟，听下来简直一团芜杂不知所云。但 Mahler 那种十分优美和个性非常鲜明的旋律却能一下子 钻到人的心里去。我第一次听到葬礼交响曲（Symphony No. 1, movement III）之后一整天脑子里都摆不脱那个旋律。鼓点夹在舒缓 的旋律中间忧伤地敲击着人的心。－－呵呵，很适合译诗的:-)
我听音乐并不系统，看过 tian xin 的好几次介绍后对 Mahler 了解 得真的比以前多多了。顺谢！
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How come my Rumi friend turned out to be a Mahler one as well?
作者：tian xin - 2000/09/23 17:13:12
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没想到:)看来我也得念点金庸古龙to catch up:)本人一谈起马勒，可是没完没了。您喜欢马勒，可一定要听一流的recordings, such as the complete set of the symphonies conducted by Georg Solti with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra(Decca) and the Leonard Bernstein ones with the Viena Philharmonic. For Mahler songs, try Kathleen Ferrier and Janet Baker. They are superb, though Mahler's songs are written for male voice.
我听马勒或其他古典大师，非得正襟危坐，心不二用。且已积习难改。不过有时也拿piano music做背景音乐，但对symphony是绝不如此慢待的:) 如果您有时间，可以先听马勒的前四部交响乐，它们是相辅相成的。第五、六、七不太容易为一般人接受，可以先跳过。但第八(Symphony of a Thousand)不得不听，简直是声音的世界，您会忘了语言与其它现象的存在。而且您只能听Solti指挥的version；听完第八，再听第九，您就会对马勒有一个较完整的了解了。未完成的第十可以抛开不管，但同时可穿插听他的songs，马勒与一般作曲家不同的是，他多以orchestral music伴歌，其执着其恢宏令人心折。如果您没时间，只需要购一专门录马勒adagio的CD，可做背景音乐，一般HMV类的music shop 都有出售。马勒的慢板。。。好美好美。。。不说了，由您去发现吧。
另：您谈到诗感，我对您译的白话也心仪久之，而我在这方面的欠缺您同各位早会看出。一直想请您给介绍一下经验，或者推荐几本必读书，如有空，能否赐教？就算是对咱大力推荐Rumi的小费吧:)))
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How can I help! :-)
作者：he zi - 2000/09/23 22:14:02
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小费 first:-)：tian xin 你饶了我吧－－不敢虚言，我的全部 training 教材就是汉英上这些诗和大家的讨论，其中好多是甜诗翁 的:-) 比如那首“碧蓝的眼睛”的译诗，你不知道我读了有多感动！ 所以我但有三两尚可一观的词句，功劳当然首归诸位师友。岂敢拿羊毛给羊付小费！:-)
马勒我听得真是太少，但记得最初在一盘“断章取义”的CD里他的作品那么自然而然地stand out，一下把我的心融进去了。我没法描述
那种亲切和感动的感觉，因为要叙述音乐的魅力，语言是多么力不从心！可惜后来却不及做更深入的探索。现在真是很感激你的细致介绍，买的下一盘CD必定是马勒无疑。有什么适合在这里讨论的感想收获，一定回来如实“交代”:-)))
明天有一天加班课，且打住。再致诚挚的感谢！
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It had already helped a lot in boosting my ego;)
作者：tian xin - 2000/09/24 00:48:56
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I can't help it if you insist being so modest:) But I still can't help recommending a Mahler CD for your reference:
The Naxos edition of Mahler Adagios, around $10 Australian, should be much less in the States. I happened to see it in a music shop. Not bad. I can guarantee you'll weep at it。。。
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Thought it had already been undone? ;-)
作者：he zi - 2000/09/24 19:18:21
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Kidding kidding, Mahler Master! :-) No modesty, was just telling the truth. I appreciate your recommendation very much. So many Mahler's at Amazon that I almost gave up searching, but fortunately, found this one at last! Copied some info here to make sure it's the very one you were talking about. I'll order some Kleenex as well with the CD, to soak my 。。。:-))) Many thanks, tian xin!
Adagio Mahler: Adagietto from the Fifth Symphony, etc
Composer: Gustav Mahler
Conductor: Antoni Wit
Performer: Ewa Podles
Ensemble: Polish Radio Symphony Orchestra Katowice
Naxos - #8552243 / May 27, 1997
1. Sym No.3 in d-Sehr langsam, Misteriosi
2. Sym No.4 in G-Ruhevoll, poco adagio
3. Sym No.5 in c sharp-Adagietto
4. Sym No.6 in a, 'The tragic'-Andante moderato
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哪里哪里，路漫漫其修远兮。。。
作者：tian xin - 2000/09/24 20:12:20
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It is the one and should be pretty good. Please get it if it is the right price. Looking forward to reading your tear-soaked comments :))
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也“谢 tian xin 君洪量”:-)
作者：he zi - 2000/09/24 22:02:56
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Yeah, the price is quite reasonable, as you said. Just completed the order. Can wait to weep but cannot wait to listen to it :-) 感谢！
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楼上楼下，姐妹你一言，我一语，肯定是“有组织，有计划，有预谋的”的！背后也许还有什么反“隐教授”势力支撑！！！
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/09/24 07:47:06
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君子不立危墙之下，听为上计！
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Meunique
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JUST A FEW SLIPS
作者：FYR - 2000/09/23 12:54:22
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- ...who(m) later turned out to be a great Austrian composer
- I seldom listen to music, OF whatever kind (of) it is
- Just 6 yuan(s)
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岂有此理^&^，“教授”都有错？！^%^
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/09/24 00:30:49
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only seemed to haven't heard of him before, whom later turned out to be a great Austrian composer and conductor according to my dictionary.
该句中的“whom”在用法上属于矫枉过正。因为这里的关系代词是“turned out to be”的主语，但假如改成“whom was considered a great Austrian”则是完全可以接受的。只是我把“turned out”下意识地变成了“证明”，于是不自觉地在心里面形成了“证明他”，关系代词便成了宾语－－这也许就是“Chinese thinking”的“马脚”吧，尽管我用英语表达时决没有任何翻译的过程，而且始终都是用“English thinking”的。但下面这句话虽然属矫枉过正，但却已约定俗成，而且也没有其它关系代词可取而代之：“Here is Captain Morse than whom there is no braver soldier”。
此外，“yuan”的复数形式加不加“s”都可以。至于，“of which kind it is”错成“which kind of it is”则完全是抵赖不了的了。
谢谢！
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Meunique
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不吃不喝可以，怎么可以不听马勒莫扎特？
作者：tian xin - 2000/09/23 19:45:48
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我是指吃酒喝咖啡:)
Well, strictly speaking, Mahler is neither German nor Austrian. As he himself said:
I am thrice homeless: as a native of Bohemia in Austria, as an Austrian among Germans and as Jew throughout the world. Everywhere an intruder, never welcomed.
That says a lot, doesn't it? It also explains to some extent why a "thrice homeless" I respond to Mahler. Scietifically, your dictionary is right. But sentimentally and from a musical perspective, he composed within the great German Romantic tradition of Brahms, Beethoven, and Wagner and wrote in German. Hence the confusion.
不知您那里的D版效果如何，但您真要听马勒，一定要听好的版本，可参考下面给鹤子的介绍。I bet您听了马勒，译诗一定会更上一层楼，抵达大隐水平。
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译文硬是比原文好看！还是喜欢看汉字^.^ 因为熟悉汉字，从中读出的更多，谢隐士君！
作者：XY - 2000/09/22 14:31:10
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好极！As reward: guided tour around the east coast of Australia and Mahler record.
作者：tian xin - 2000/09/22 16:37:17
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好 口+野，兄弟！够晒文彩够晒味！
作者：野草 - 2000/09/22 19:06:40
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非常好.建议隐教授找一份儿填歌词的工作 (在联合国打字太大才小用啦:->)现在的歌词太缺乏美感了."�*�*"这个词小弟还是头一遭看到,原来部首是一,还以为云字也可以当部首.
作者：蓦然 - 2000/09/23 00:30:19
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我哋广东人话斋：�*咁大个头，就唔好�*咁大顶帽。我�*哋三脚猫功夫，玩玩吓就得！仲系做中文打字员最啱我。只可惜，古老师偏�*^)^
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/09/23 01:29:36
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请正君游联合国，还请他吃饭这么费心费力费钱的事儿他都做，而我想帮帮他省点心省点事，他都不肯呢。真系同人唔同命，同遮（伞）唔同柄^%^。唉！也别想了，只要他不逐我出门墙，已算三生有幸啦^&^
噢，对了，您刚才提到“大材小用”，俺自然不是什么“大材”，不过，不知您是在“曹营”还是在“汉营”？汉营这里的特色是“小材大用”，错别字连篇，文理不通的，俺们单位那些所谓“高级专家”几乎都是。
对不起，差点儿把正事给忘了。您提到“�*叇”一词的部首为“一”，那我倒是不知道。原因是，历来查字典不是查拼音，便是查四角号码。去查了一下《辞海》，果然不错。谢谢您提点！不过，如果您有《金山词�*2000》，则不用这样查，贴上去则可。
不过，偷偷地告诉您，尽管“�*叇”一词是我以前就懂的，但“祖帐”则是查词典的。有一本词典是郭绍虞编的，叫《同义词词林》，相当�*Longman的Thesaurus，很好，有时候总找不到合适的词儿翻译时，我便会借助于它。如“送别”一词便与“饯行”、“帐饮”、“祖饯”、“祖道”、“祖帐”等词放在一块儿。于是，从这里偷了一个以押“ang”韵。
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Meunique
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小弟属于小材小用,驻守名不副实的"Fragrant Harbour",所以也算是"汉营"了.
作者：蓦然 - 2000/09/23 09:28:30
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小时候学的是部首,四角号码没学过,这里的学校从未教过这玩意儿,连普通话也得自学 (当然现在形势不同啦)。
听你说,看来《金山词霸2000》挺不错，这里没见过，可能因为《金山词霸2000》是国标码的,我们这里用大五码 (不然怎么体现"一国两码":->)。
谢谢你介绍《同义词词林》，下次去深圳书城时找找看。
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噢，“Fragrant Harbour”还有人感兴趣上“汉英”，真是难得！好，又多了一个“汉营”中人！对了，前两天香港考试局的英文试题出了错，引起轩然大波，您还记得没有？
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/09/23 10:11:49
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我只记得其中有一题是“The editors has...”，还有一题说是时态用错了，但我没看到新闻。不知您记不记得？
《金山词霸2000》既然已称霸了，自然会把“Fragrant Habour”纳入它的“统战对象”里啦。我看它那Big-5应该可以和您用的兼容。倘有问题，可告诉我，我应该可以帮您解决。此外，四角号码在这里是从来不教的，我也是当时老师提到，自己去买了一本回来学的。但学起来不难，因为编码简单，一个小时保证学会。
除了《同义词词林》外，我们这里的书店还发现有类似的，而且比较大本，但我以为不及郭绍虞的编得好，而且主要侧重于现代汉语。
噢，对了，还有一个问题。前些时候在钟挺耀事件聆讯中，为董伯伯助手辩护那个律师，操的英语比较少香港口音，但他好象讲过这么一句“Did you ever instruct TO him...”，但我没怎么留意听。窃以为，这句话似乎有问题，只是不知道是否在法律用语中是这么讲的。
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Meunique
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先郑重声明:蓦然不代表香港人.蓦然水平低,不代表香港人水平低.不过
作者：蓦然 - 2000/09/23 11:54:51
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老实说香港人的语文能力总的来讲确实低.不但英语水平低,中文也低.这完成是教育制度的失败.念小学中学的时候,英语课是差不多从来不要求我们讲英语的,不讲英语怎么可能学好英语? 以前当老师的,除了少数有教育理想的,都是那些进不了大学才念教育学院的,当中还有些只是贪图多假期,收入稳定才当老师.他们的学生进不了大学,就当老师去,再"培训"一些进不了大学的人去当老师.
近年传媒流行不规范的广东话,什么"急弗(keep fit)","fing头丸 (摇头丸)"都可以出笼,这可能是由于一方面传媒请不到中文水平高的人,另一方面读者的水平也不断下降,所以他们干脆不规范到底,自由发挥,对下一代影响很大.不知你有没有发觉这种歪风甚至蔓延到整个广东省.
关于香港考试局的错误,South China Morning Post刊登了下面这些例子和考试局的会应.
Example: "even through there may be some occasional errors".
Advertisement's claim: This should be though not through.
Examinations Authority response: A genuine typographical error admitted.
Example: A wide variety of appropriate means for connecting utterances are used.
Claim: Subject and verb do not agree in number.
Response: Acceptable.
Example: The editors encourages the use of informal style.
Claim: Subject and verb do not agree in number.
Response: This is taken out of context. The first part of the sentence "The editors of Wired Magazine" and the second part "encourages the use of informal style" are not supposed to be put together.
Example: He asked me where I live (lived).
Claim: Wrong sequence of tense occurs in the sentence.
Response: Acceptable.
Example: Indiscriminate copying from the passage will penalised.
Claim: The meaning is not clear.
Response: Acceptable. It has been commonly used.
关于"instruct TO",我没听到.
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抱歉！实无此意。
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/09/24 07:35:52
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我不是这个意思。只是觉得香港人有兴趣于翻译的，似乎很少有兴趣于翻译这玩意儿的。其实，我觉得这种情形在大陆也是一样的，我身边的朋友便没有一人有兴趣于翻译的。
您说“英语课是差不多从来不要求我们讲英语的”，这倒让我觉得很愕然。
香港人讲话有一个毛病，就是讲话时夹杂着大量英语单词，三句不出便蹦一个英文单词出来。自改革开放以来，广东邻近港澳的地方都可收看到香港电视，于是，此风便在广东尤其是操广州音的地方蔓延开去。如今，在我们这里，连ABC都不懂的人一讲到“检查”的时候都必定会说“check”（读时“ch”不读“t丿”，而读汉语拼音里的“q”），而讲“检查”的人倒变得越来越少。
至于以上试题样本中，语法题除“The editors of Wired Magazine encourages the use of informal style”不可接受外，窃以为，其它都没问题。
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Meunique
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我也不是说你有这个意思.只因小弟在这里可能是"少数民族",恐怕别人就把我当了典型.随便说说而已.别太认真.
作者：蓦然 - 2000/09/24 11:51:55
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香港人讲话夹杂大量英语单词，是拜英语教育所赐。未推行母语教育之前,是用英语授课的.碍于英语表达能力，许多老师还是用广东话夹杂英语单词来授课,久而久之,这就变成了香港人讲话的风格.说来也奇怪,不是什么英语单词都可以在"香港话"中占一席位的,有些单词特别流传得快,比如lift,keep fit,update,keep.而且许多在发音上已经广东话化了,变成了lib(这个甚至有新字,写成[车立]),kib fid,ub day,kib。我想这个现象跟广东话本来不是书写语言也有关系,既然只有语音,就没有什么限制了.
我在广东接触过一些从外省来打工,完成不懂英语的人,发觉他们也学了不少这种英式粤语,我也感到很愕然.
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My Chinese Star 2.97 doesn't acknowledge Cantonese writing! :-(
作者：wq - 2000/09/23 11:16:44
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So I can't view it with Netscape. But with IE5 and the downloaded Chinese fonts, I can. Is there any difference between the two systems in Chinese code set?
I thought we Chinese write the same thing everywhere although we don't understand each other in speaking and I told everyone who asked about Chinese language so. Seems I am terribly wrong due to my ignorance of Cantonese.
So, dear Prof Last Hermit, could you give me some orientation courses on that issue if time permits? :-)
Can you write down word by word what you say in Cantonese? Do you have corresponding characters which are not part of "common" Chinese characters for most of distinct Cantonese syllables? How different are Madarin character set and Cantonese one? How do newspapers in Canton or Fragrant Habour handle the coexistence of or make a balance between Madarin and Cantonese writings?
Dumb questions from your student wq the dummy.
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If you don't mind reading my answer...
作者：蓦然 - 2000/09/23 13:02:54
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Cantonese used to be a spoken language, not a written one. In fact some Cantonese pronunciations have no written words. However, for the reasons mentioned in my last posting, Hong Kong media write Cantonese, sometimes using an English word or creating a new word to represent the unwritable pronunciation.If you want to know how different Cantonese is from Mandarin, read "广东话普通话口语词对译手册" written by 曾子凡.You'll be surprised to see that Cantonese is like a foreign language.
Now some Hong Kong newspapers are published in both languages - Mandarin for news, Cantonese for supplements.However, wherever solemnity is required,standard Chinese is still the language written.
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The so-called "professor" is giving a course...^)^
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/09/23 13:16:36
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It seems to denote that you have an English version of Windows 95/98, and your Chinese Star 2.97 is outdated.
But I believe that you should be able to view it even under Netscape when set to Traditonal Chinese(big-5) since you've downloaded the fonts. The GB-coded system, started with “啊”, is totally different from the Big-5 on the level of internal codes, i.e. the charaters sets established by the authorities concerned. For example, the GB-2312(the current one you're using built-in the Chinse Star. The new one is called GBK which covers the Big-5 system as well as other systems used by other Chinese speaking countries, and was released before 1995 as a result of cooperation among the related authroities, including the Singaporean, Malaysian, etc.), which has 6762(?) in total, can only view those characters commonly used, i.e. can't view big-5 coded files. If you have a copy of Chinse version of Windows 95 or above, however, you'll have no problem in viewing any big-5 encoded sites since the GBK system is built in. But don't worry. I'll send you a copy of Richwin which will enalbe you to view even Korean coded-system with no problem. Eligible to anyone interested, though.
In Cantonese, we've many characters that putonghua doesn't have, such as “啲�*(a little), which is actually more like a fabricated one than a real character that ever existed. Nomally we just place a “口” on the left side of the main character, and pronounced as the same as the main one, to create a new one for reading with ease. However, we do have many charactes that are old or obsolete nowadays such as “睇”for “看”, “髀”(which is wrongly replaced with “*Y”,seen in many snack food restaurants up to date)for “大腿”and so on. From now on, I'll include a putonghua version whenever I write in Cantonese, though. So don't worry, be happy.
And Cantonese characters are only common in Fragrant Harbour's papers, althoug you may sometimes find some in Cantonese papers of Guangdong Province.
PS: Those Cantonese characters used upstairs are:
我们广东人说：没有这么大个头，就不要戴这么大顶帽子。我这点三脚猫功夫，闹着玩就可以！还是做中文打字员最合适我。
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Meunique
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What a kind professor! Equal thanks to brother 蓦然!
作者：wq - 2000/09/23 14:25:08
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Thank you both very much, very informative! Now I have some ideas on this topic. In Shanghai, for example, evening newspapers sometimes do copy down spoken words of Shanghai dialect, but only occasionally and with standard characters, they don't create new ones (apparantly they are less imaginative than Cantonese :-)). So those words are not as unfamilar as Cantonese words.
Also thank professor LH for Chinese-coding history, I felt always confused about numerous coding systems. I do use a French version of Win 95 and outdated CStar 2.97 in my computer, but I can view with IE all Cantonese characters, although without understanding them :-(. Thank you for your kind offer, at the time being I can do without. I will come up to you latter with other questions, perhaps. :-)
Thanks.
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