Jane 于 1999/12/03 12:43:44 发表在 汉英
Please read this passage on rhetoric:Socrates treats rhetoric by arguing, against the pretensions of orators in the Phaedrus, that the good rhetorician must also be a dialectician and, against the sophists in the Gorgias, that rhetoric is a sham art, or rather no art, but experience and use which are substituted for justice. He frequently employs the example of artists and artisans in the arguments Plato records, usually running through a series of analogies such as would connect the poet in turn and in varying respects with the physician, the carpenter, the cobbler, and the shepherd, contrasting art with the irrational, the incalculable, the habitual, and the empirical, but requiring no fixed differences among the arts, nor even between the arts and the sciences. The judgment of poetry attributed to Socrates in the Republic, like the later Platonic judgment expressed in the laws (if indeed such differentiation between the two positions is necessary), is based on consideration of educational, practical, and rhetorical effects, and it leads to moral disapproval and political censorship. Like the orator, the poet finds himself in competition with the dialectician and the legislator, and no method or accomplishment is disclosed in Plato's analyses of rhetoric or poetry that would seem to Aristotle to involve problems beyond those of dialectic and morals or to require new acknowledgments of Plato's originality or additional criticisms of his errors. Among the independent sciences instituted by Aristotle's philosophic method, on the other hand, rhetorical arguments could be considered as devices of persuasion apart from consideration of truth or falsity of conclusion, accurate or candid presentation of the character and predilections of the speaker, or preferable ends or desires of the auditor, and poetry could be considered in terms of the structure of the poem apart from its tendency to stimulate moral or immoral conduct or to produce pleasure or other passions. Such separate consideration of things or disciplines depends on a philosophic scheme in which related questions can be treated according to their proper principles in their appropriate sciences. As applied to the arts, the accomplishment of Aristotle's philosophic method was the separation of problems involved in the mode of existence of an object produced or of a productive power (which might properly be treated in physics and metaphysics) as well as problems involved in the effects of artificial objects or artistic efforts (as treated in psychology, morals, and politics) or in doctrinal cogency and emotional persuasivensss (as treated in logic and rhetoric) from problems which bear on the traits of an artistic construction consequent simply on its being a work of art. As applied to rhetorical persuasion, the same method permits the recognition that rhetoric is a counterpart, or offshoot, or subdivision of dialectic; that it borrows from sophistic; that it is derivative from ethics; and that it is a sham substitute for politics when it is not made a proper part of politics; and at the sme time it permits the examination of the peculiar devices of persuasion apart from consideration of those relations and analogies.
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Of course I don't expect anyone to translate the whole paragraph. I just want to present it as a translation challenge. How do you translate this kind of writing. Please discuss any related issues as you like.
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God makes the back for the burden and the translator for the job as long as he has the time.
作者:Easy - 1999/12/03 14:47:04
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Better highlight the difficult points that defy translation in your opinion.
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Somewhat related: My views on Rhetorics and Politics
作者:古月 - 1999/12/03 15:22:29
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Theoretically speaking, terms, categories, identities, etc. never have fixed meanings, nor do they fully express our lives and experiences. They need to be defined and redefined before sensible communication can be conducted. But with what are they defined? Other terms and categories. And with what are these defining terms and categories defined? More defining terms and categories to be defined and redefined, ad infinitum. Therefore, as it is impossible to definitely fix the definition of categories and terms, there is always the space-between categories and lives, expression and experience, reality and representation, all because of rhetorics. When one is engaged in politics, a radical movement, for example, challenging the established assumptions and authorities by using well-defined terms and categories, then it is already labour lost, for one is already caught up in a rhetorical network woven with logocentric language when one uses terms, categories and identities such as man, woman, prole and bourgeois ..., all arbitrarily defined by a tyrannical "majority consensus." In a sense, even by "acknowledging" or "inhabiting" the space-between, aren't human individuals already enslaved to the logocentric language that controls and manipulates them with its categories, either provoking or prodding them in their experiences of excess (radicalism) or reconciling them to the status quo (conservatism)? How can they expect to deconstruct and resist that tyrannical logos of language?
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an old question ...
作者:alzheimer-mind - 1999/12/03 16:59:23
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when i read your post i remembered one of those very old questions of mine: when people think, do they think using languages or rather in images and impressions? is there a substantial difference between "reasoning" and "thinking"-tout-court?
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Well, imho...
作者:古月 - 1999/12/03 18:52:16
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It all depends on how you define "language." Do you call images and graphics, or even gestures and moves, language? People often say "the language of music, of choreography, or of painting is universal." What does that mean? Again people may also say "language of Nature can be interpreted in many ways." And "That's how you interpret earthquate as expression of God's wrath in a rough language." You may call it "an extended definition of the term 'language,'" but why can't we interpret the kind of language in our mind as a very much narrowed or simplified system of graphics and images or impressions? In that way, wouldn't it be easier to sort out your question?
The same applies to "thinking" and "reasoning." I'd say, "reasoning" is kind of normalization of "thinking." By "normalization," I mean a process of categorization, classification or abstraction by human consensus. In other words, "thinking" is more natural than "reasoning" while "reasoning" is more systematic, logical and abstract than "thinking".
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trying to be more specific ...
作者:alz-minded - 1999/12/03 20:16:40
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the origin of my question was when everybody started asking me: "in which language do you think?" Somehow it seems to be quite clear (though not that obvious) to everyone what's meant by the term "language."
That's when i started figuring out in which language i think. But it seems i don't really think using a natural language, but rather in images and impressions. Up till then I never questioned this. When people ask you to DESCRIBE the process of your thinking, e.g. the decision making of whether you'll buy this T-shirt or that jeans, you automatically use a natural language. But do we really think (reason) using a natural language. Is there a little silent voice speaking inside our head when we think? i wonder.
but i guess this a bit beyond the scope of this forum. thnx for all your reactions anyway!
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ok, let me try...
作者:古月 - 1999/12/03 21:38:10
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Images, impressions, graphics, and words are in effect all pristine languages . What we call "words" or "spoken and written language" are just symbolized, categorized or classified system of images, impressions and graphics, only to make it more convenient or economical to communicate. That's human ingeniuity. At the primitive stage, for example, people had to use ropes or stones to mark numbers, but when you have numerals afterwards, isn't it more ecomomical to memorize and calculate? Be it ropes, stones or numerals, they are all different forms of symbolic language. The development of civilization has witnessed this very process of symbolization or abstraction of images, objects, graphics and impressions. The difference between graphics and words is in the intensity of abstraction which distinguishes different levels of education, and different stages of life in terms of intellectuality .
Specifically, less educated people tend to think more in graphic terms than educated people, because the images, graphics and impressions are not yet intently categorized in their minds.
It also applies to different stages of human development. During our childhood, we tend to be more graphic than semantic as we haven't learned enough abstract symbols yet.
And it applies to different aspects of life as well. When we are engaged in academic discussion, the whole process is highly categorized and abstract, we reason logically, and, of course, we think semantically. That's what education is meant for!
But where the most poetic type of life is involved, for example, when we think of our beloved or natural beauties, we tend to be more graphic than semantic, educated or not.
In short, graphics or words, they are different forms of symbolic language. Depending on different degrees of abstraction, we use different systems of symbols with different persons, on different occasions, at different stages of life, and for different purposes.
This is only my preliminary comments on this highly metaphysical subject. I may be wrong and your criticism would be deeply appreciated. Thanks!
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i'll think about it. thx!
作者:alz-minded - 1999/12/03 22:01:50
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A sample (seems to be educated) for you reference :-)
作者:su - 1999/12/04 09:26:48
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I think I think in images. And it does seem that there is 'a little silent voice speaking inside' my head when I think. But it speaks with the speed of light (so to speak).
Heisenberg Principle of Uncertainty (one way to put it is, 'we cannot make simutaneously accurate measurement the position and momentum of a partical') implies that you can't do experiments on an object without interfering its original state. A philosopher asked his students: 'Then can we think about our own thinking without interfering its natural state?' So the result of 'I think I think' is already not how 'I think', I think :-)
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thx!
作者:alz-minded - 1999/12/04 14:36:21
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Thanks for sharing
作者:Jane - 1999/12/03 17:03:52
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Great! I had expected all the boring "How to...?" Q's and A's. Now I do see different stuff for thought. Hope you will expand it, put it in Chinese and publish it in one of the Chinese forums.
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I'm afraid other Chinese forums are not ready yet for such serious topics.
作者:古月 - 1999/12/03 19:01:00
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That's why I've withdrawn from most of them to seek refuge amongst building blocks of language. As you may complain that this forum is filled with "How to...?" Q's and A's. But, alas, that's the very foundation of almost everything.
As it goes along, you may come across some pieces on rhetorics or, even literature, from time to time, but most of the time you're expected to embrace "How to...?" Q's and A's. This forum is intended to cater to a wide variety of tastes, I presume?
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