野草君：楼下鄙人有事求教，烦请轻移玉步。
[ 跟贴目录 ] [ 返回论坛 ]
Last Hermit 于 2000/01/19 07:19:34 发表在 汉英
---------------
Meunique
[ 回应主贴 ]
[ 返回论坛 ]
跟贴目录:
恕鄙人无知。向野草君请教。
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/01/19 08:51:50
***
一、是我粗心，把放浪形骸脱离了文中人物，想到纨绔子弟去了。但细想一下，用动词或副词好象都不妥，因为rank与skeletal(ly)等配搭不当。是否应该是一个名词?即：
In skeletalness and unkemptness, he ranks No. one.
In undisciplinedness and liberalism, he's second to none
但又觉得别扭。还是应该这样呢？
So skeletal and unkempt is he number one.
So undiscipline and sluggish is he second to none.
不过，我还是不明白您所说的主语补足语是什么和怎么用。
二、第二句也是我分心了，我还以为那是说喝醉了那模样，所以才想到用waddle。那么，依君所言，现改为：
Like a cocky rooster, he strode out in no hurry.
Like a gust of wind, he swept in.
君意如何？
陋识，见笑！
并请指正。
---------------------------
Meunique
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
擅见;野草君、Last Hermit见谅
作者：laoliu - 2000/01/19 12:51:38
***
Let's look at 野草君's translation:
Skeletal and unkempt, he ranks Number One;
Free-born and unrestrained, he's second to none.
We are informed of his superiority in general terms, not in the specific area of free-spiritedness. It is also implied that he is superior because of his free-spiritedness, which is not what the author wants to say.
I would much prefer your version:
In skeletalness and unkemptness, he ranks No. one;
In undisciplinedness and liberalism, he's second to none.
I'm not quite sure myself, but I hope some of the following sentences are relevant to this discussion:
Always the smart one, he won the contest with ease.
A patriot at heart, he flys the flag of his motherland on October 1 every year.
Scholarly and meticulous, she compiled an accurate, detailed history of the local Miao people.
Not satified with the initial results, he continued his experiment.
Like a mad man, he attacked everyone in the room.
Young and delicate, she walks towards me with a meaningful smile.
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
WARNING: Missing the "/" in "" can be hazardous to your web posting
作者：laoliu - 2000/01/19 12:56:30
***
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
原句里野草君把形容词前置，不知是否是诗歌里的灵活做法？
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/01/20 04:14:55
***
我总觉得，这里用形容词或副词都不能与rank搭配。您所举的例子中，仅有一个用形容词，就是：
Young and delicate, she walks towards me with a meaningful smile. 把这句话倒过来就是：She, who's young and delicate, walks...。再看这句：
Skeletal and unkempt, he ranks number one.倒过来是：He, who's skeletal and unkempt, ranks number one.这样，整句话便欠完整－－差一个补足语。所以，我才把它换成名词：In skeletalness and unkemptness, he ranks No. one;
In undisciplinedness and liberalism, he's second to none.但这样做读起来又比较拗口，所以改成：
So skeletal and unkempt is he number one.
So undiscipline and sluggish is he second to none。这样，读起来好象好一点。
不过，语法是这样，不知诗化以后是否可以灵活一点？
谢讨论。
---------------------------
Meunique
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
身不由己，迟复隐君，请莫见怪。
作者：野草 - 2000/01/20 13:25:11
***
Just back from a business errand. Sorry for the delay. Please don't take offence.绝不是想吊起来卖。打工族往往身 不由己呀，为图温饱哪能终日无限上网？有机会见缝插针已经算走运了。望隐君和各位海涵。
Let me try to respond to your queries about "subject complement". Please compare the following sentences first, paying special attention to the part that initiates each sentence:
1. Slowly but surely, the patient swallowed the food.
2. Slowly but undoubtedly, the dark clouds disappeared.
3. Slow but determined, he ended up successful in his career.
In (1) & (2), they are simply adverbial adjuncts that normally appear at the end of an SVOA- or SVA-type sentence. In both cases, the adverbs used are directly related semantically to the verbs in the main clauses, namely "swallowed" and "disappeared".
In (3), however, the "Slow but determined" has nothing directly to do with the verb phrase "ended up". Rather, they are just adjectives here used to define the subject of the sentence "he". We can expand the sentence into:
He was slow but determined, and (/ so) he ended up successful.
In this structure, "slow but determined" is called "subject complement". The complement is normally a noun phrase or an adjective phrase. Some of the sentences provided by laoliu are certainly relevant illustrations of such complements in similar cases:
* Always the smart one, he won the contest with ease.
* Scholarly and meticulous, she compiled an accurate, detailed history of the local Miao people.
* Not satisfied with the initial results, he continued his experiment.
* Young and delicate, she walks towards me with a meaningful smile.
In my last posting, what I tried to do was call your attention to "subject complement" as distinct from adverbial. It doesn't matter whether you like to use the same term, but I'm sure such structures in English are by no means unfamiliar to you. They should be acceptable not only in prose, I believe. Hence, my version at issue: "Skeletal and unkempt, he ranks Number One. " may be interpreted as something like:
"He looks skeletal and unkempt, and he ranks Number One (in this respect). "
This might naturally lead to your version "In skeletalness and unkemptness, he ranks No. One." In my opinion, it is correct grammatically as a single sentence, but sounds very awkward indeed, as you also admitted. My version may be a little loose in structure, yet I am sure it is acceptably clear.
I never thought my translations could be anything "ranking Number One". Normally done in haste, in fact they often turn out faulty or even wrong on second thought. In my other lines, for example:
"When he left, he strode out unhurriedly in a swagger;
When he came, he just blew in like a waft of cloud."
the "waft" doesn't sound to go well with "cloud". So if there is a chance for correction, I would now replace it with "puff". Hence,
When he left, he strode out unhurriedly in a swagger;
When he came, he just blew in like a puff of cloud.
I hope my explanation will clarify some of your doubts. Thanks for the discussion.
P.S. For more info about "complements", please refer to "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language" by Randolph Quirk et al.
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
很有收获！本来也是稀里糊涂的，这下又学了一招。you guys are real great！
作者：海啸 - 2000/01/20 21:33:01
***
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
确实长见识，长知识。Thank you so much!
作者：hz - 2000/01/21 12:30:34
***
BTW，向不管哪位懂行的问一句：我有点奇怪为什么最近不时看见成篇斜体字或黑体字。好象是有
什么关没关上之类的问题？窃以为好象还是正的看着方便一点似的。:-)
Well, just curious and my own preference, no complaint for sure.
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
隐士兄是始作俑者。我现在只好歪着头看。：)
作者：渔夫 - 2000/01/21 13:33:56
***
---------------------------
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
那么说得快把隐士先生找来，要不以后大家脖子疼他责任可大了:-)
作者：hz - 2000/01/21 14:13:41
***
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
我也弄不明白斜体胎究竟是怎么“下”出来的！
作者：野草 - 2000/01/21 14:19:27
***
我也弄不明白，明明和以前一样输入，怎么这次却“下”出个斜体胎，莫非碰了哪个不该碰的机关？
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
不大懂。但好象不是您的责任，是楼上“传染”下来的。
作者：hz - 2000/01/21 14:33:55
***
只是搞不懂“病”是如何发起来的。看来只好等隐士出山、救度我等了:-)
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
试验
作者：渔夫 - 2000/01/21 15:26:33
***
no more italic
---------------------------
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
再试验
作者：渔夫 - 2000/01/21 15:32:23
***
Open, sesame.
---------------------------
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
咦，您拉动鱼网哪个结搞掂啦？教教咱吧！先谢!
作者：野草 - 2000/01/21 16:30:56
***
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
盗来的秘方
作者：渔夫 - 2000/01/21 17:02:32
***
我查了一下隐士的旧帖。在需要斜体的段落开始处加字符串""，结束处加字符串""。
laoliu的帖中忘记了结束处的字符串，因此后面的跟帖统统斜体。
---------------------------
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
字符串没有显示出来。应该是和
作者：渔夫 - 2000/01/21 17:06:35
***
---------------------------
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
字符串没有显示出来。应该是""""和""""
作者：渔夫 - 2000/01/21 17:07:20
***
---------------------------
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
字符串没有显示出来。应该是""和""
作者：渔夫 - 2000/01/21 17:08:29
***
---------------------------
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
为人民服务好辛苦！！！请看链接地址。
作者：渔夫 - 2000/01/21 17:16:22
***
链接：隐士的秘方
---------------------------
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
妙不可言！
作者：hz - 2000/01/21 17:53:44
***
我在楼上断完了案，回来发现头又能正过来了，实在好！是不是紧跟laoliu来一“膏药”的话，
我们楼上的传染病就全能治好了？:-)您已这么辛苦，绝不是再劳动大驾的意思，呆会儿有功夫
时把隐士秘方琢磨琢磨，也来试两下。
实在非常感谢！
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
“搞掂”？在广东的许多北人都以为是“搞定”！莫非老师您是广东人？如果是，让我套套近乎，行不？
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/01/22 03:21:40
***
---------------------------
Meunique
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
不是地道广东人，但粤语是学来的，过得去而已。 ：-))
作者：野草 - 2000/01/25 11:05:19
***
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
这一切，全部都是我的错．．．
作者：laoliu - 2000/01/22 02:40:37
***
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
再施一技^)^
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/01/22 03:01:38
***
楼上诸方家，如果你们在文中要用这些符号的话，请先打一行“/i”、“/u”、“/b”、“/center”等，再打回车，使其殿后，以防不测！
---------------------------
Meunique
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
我那么一问惊动了刘、隐两君，实在是罪过！说责难隐先生也不过是玩笑。要麻烦就算了吧，以后正着就得了:-)
作者：hz - 2000/01/22 03:16:09
***
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
子曰：非礼勿视！于是，只好乜视各方家，尤其妹妹芳容！^)^
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/01/22 03:31:42
***
---------------------------
Meunique
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
勿视为敬，乜视为蔑，您还是正过来是正经:-) Anyway, thanks for your instruction upstairs!
作者：hz - 2000/01/22 04:12:30
***
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
Never mind!
作者：hz - 2000/01/22 03:08:04
***
They say a fault confessed is fully redressed :-) (失敬, 谅! :-)
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
Sorry, but I'm not convinced
作者：laoliu - 2000/01/22 03:43:33
***
野草君：
Quote
Hence, my version at issue: "Skeletal and unkempt, he ranks Number One. " may be interpreted as something like:
"He looks skeletal and unkempt, and he ranks Number One (in this respect). "
Unquote
I don't think that one is expected to infer that "he" is the number one only when it comes to being skeletal and unkempt. As I see it, when the subject complement is removed, the sentence should still make good sense. "[H]e ranks Number One" does make sense, but "he" ranks Number One, by default, in general terms.
Also, it appears that in most cases the characteristics of the subject as described by the subject complement do have some bearing on the action of the verb. In the sentence "Slow but determined, he ended up successful in his career," "his" eventual success was at least partially due to "his" determination. I can't think of any situation where a subject complement was used and some rhetoric effect was not desired.
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
昨才见帖，简复，谢讨论！
作者：野草 - 2000/01/25 11:01:07
***
Sorry you're not yet convinced. Let me elaborate a bit and see if you could be taken a little closer to what I believe. You don't have to agree with me. I just feel obliged to make my point a little clearer.
The central issue under discussion here, as I see it, has to do with the syntactic and semantic roles of VERBLESS CLAUSES in complex sentence structures, in which "subject complement" could play a part.
As a means of syntactic compression, verbless clauses are valuable particularly in written prose, where the writer has the leisure to revise for compactness. E.g.
1. She was born of humble parentage. She began her working life in a bakery. =>
* Of humble parentage, she began her working life in a bakery. (i)
* Born of humble parentage, she began her working life in a bakery. (ii)
* A woman of humble parentage, she began her working life in a bakery. (iii)
2. She was slow but determined. She ended up successful in her career. =>
* Slow but determined, she ended up successful in her career. (iv)
3. He was sixty years old. He was lonely. He lived in a big house in Brooklyn. =>
* A lonely man at sixty, he lived in a big house in Brooklyn. (v)
* Lonely at sixty, he lived in a big house in Brooklyn. (vi)
The initial parts of all the bulleted sentences above are VERBLESS CLAUSES. They vary in structure, but one thing in common is that none of them has a finite verb. There are no tense markers, no modal auxiliaries, no subordinating conjunctions, and often no subjects. The meanings associated with tense, aspect, and mood are to be recovered only from the sentential context.
Syntactically, most of such verbless clauses may be treated as adverbial to their respective main clauses. As we can see, the verbless clause is sometimes reduced to its minimum of a single complement.
What is the semantic relation between the verbless clause and the main clause, then? Since the verbless clause is always expandable (or restorable) to a finite clause, which is often an adverbial clause, we are tempted to name its role in the complex sentence. Is it a clause of reason? Or of condition? Or of contrast or something? � Unfortunately, it is not always easy to pinpoint exactly what it is, though we may be absolutely sure of the interrelationship in meaning between the two clauses. In (2), for instance, there certainly is some kind of relation of reason between the two clauses. But in (3), this kind of relation becomes ambiguous. Yet for the sake of compactness, the structure is very often used in written prose, with the writer assuming that the meaning is clear enough for the reader to figure out.
Now back to my controversial "Skeletal and unkempt, he ranks Number One." Based on my discussion above, may I just expand the sentence like this:
4. Skeletal and unkempt, he ranks Number One. =>
* Being skeletal and unkempt, he ranks Number One. (vii)
* He looks skeletal and unkempt. He ranks Number One. (viii)
Please note that I never said that "He ranks Number One ONLY when it comes to being skeletal and unkempt. " What is definitely present here, though, is some kind of a causal relationship between the verbless clause and the main clause, a little vague as it may be. If (vii) is acceptable and clear in writing, the removal of the "being"is no doubt acceptable for the sake of further compactness.
You are right if you say that where a verbless clause (NOTE: Not only subject complement!) is used it is always used to achieve certain rhetoric effect. That's precisely why I insist on the acceptability ( By NO means perfectness!) of my lines.
Thanks for the queries. The discussion of such a topic would deserve more than a whole chapter. For a comprehensive analysis of verbless clauses, adverbial clauses, as well as complements, if interested, please refer to Chapters 14-17 of A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language by Randolph Quirk et al. (Longman 1985)
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
谢谢您的回复
作者：laoliu - 2000/01/25 17:44:58
***
谢谢您对语法问题的详解，我有很多的收获。您所提到的书我会想办法找到，同时希望不要被认为是把一个小小的问题analyze to death。
我一直认为您的句子在语法上是完全正确的，问题是：
Skeletal and unkempt, he ranks Number One;
Free-born and unrestrained, he's second to none.
到底有没有体现原文
放浪形骸第一，自由散漫无双！
的意思。
原文是说，“他”在“放浪形骸”和“自由散漫”方面是无人可比的，并没有告诉我们对“他”在总体上评价。
我对您的英译第一句的理解是：
1) He is skeletal and unkempt;
2) Overall, He ranks Number One;
3) Being skeletal and unkempt might have contributed to his superiority.
上次您说：
[M]y version at issue: "Skeletal and unkempt, he ranks Number One. " may be interpreted as something like:
"He looks skeletal and unkempt, and he ranks Number One (in this respect). "
这次您说：
Please note that I never said that "He ranks Number One ONLY when it comes to being skeletal and unkempt. " What is definitely present here, though, is some kind of a causal relationship between the verbless clause and the main clause, a little vague as it may be.
按您这次的说法，我们对译文的理解好像已没有分歧，而问题是在对原文的理解，是这样的吗？
[ 回应此贴 |
查看原贴 ]
[ 跟贴目录 ] [ 返回论坛 ]