Last Hermit 于 2000/02/21 11:48:43 发表在 汉英
1)
1)This kind of films is popular.
2)This kind of films are popular
3)These kind of films is popular
4)These kind of films are popular.
5)These kind of films (is or are) popular.
6)(This or These species of spider (is or are)found
only in the New World.
如果，这是一道考试题的话，肯定会让绝大部分中国学生傻眼！我相信
最肯定无误的就是第5例，即These kinds of films are popular其他的一概打X－－换上我也一定会是这样。因为，这些年来我们的英语教学都是正儿八经地跟随所谓规范语法（prescriptive grammar）所定出来的框框，不敢越雷池半步，甚少让学生们接触informal English。
但这些英语在英语世界里却比比皆是，可谓下至引车卖浆者之流，上至文人骚客，
无不在使用它们。其中，不乏不买语法帐者。上面1－4例便是明证。据The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright 1992 介绍，它们不但见诸于日常会话中，更出自大文豪之手。这边厢，语法家们在叫嚷，应该如何如何守法，那边厢，大手笔们却不理不睬，我行我素。很多人见此，便跟着学起来。语法家们，恐怕也只有跺脚的份儿了。起初，也许还不接受，到最后，便听之任之，乃至接受了它们，或者说，从另一语法角度去解释它们。如上面1－4例，便有人将“kind”作形容词来看待。这样一来，四个句子便都可以接受了。语言，果真是个巨人！ 所幸的是，如今的语法家们也不是那么迂腐的了。如夸氏等四人耗二十多年心血写
成的鸿编巨制A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language，便有下面的例句：
These/Those sort/kind/type of prties are dangerous(非正式用法）
并说它“说明了一种合乎习惯用法的不规则现象：名词和限定词those之间，以及名词和动词之间的数的不一致。这种不规则现象可以用改动短语的办法来避免”
These kinds of parties are dangerous.
That kind of party is dangerous.
Parties of that kind are dangerous.
Usage Note: The use of
the plural demonstratives these and those with kind
and sort, as in these kind (or sort) of
films, has been a traditional bugbear of American
grammarians. By and large, British grammarians have been more
tolerant, and the construction can be found in the works of
British writers from Pope to Dickens to Churchill.
Grammatically, the question boils down to whether kind
and sort should be treated as head nouns
(analogous to species or variety, for example)
or whether they have become semantically weakened to the
status of a sort of phrasal quantifier that functions like an
adjective, analogous in some ways to bunch and number
in expressions such as a bunch of friends, a number
of reasons. If kind
and sort are
unambiguously nouns, one would expect to see only singular
demonstratives and singular verbs accompanying them: This
kind of films is popular (compare This species of spider
is found only in the New World). If they are
functioning as adjectives, however, the plural demonstrative and
plural verb should be acceptable: These kind of
films are popular. In fact, the kind of construction can be
plausibly analyzed either way, which is doubtless why writers
have mixed and matched the number of demonstratives and verbs in
just about every possible combination. We find reputable
precedent for this kind of films are,
these kind of films are,
this kind of films is,
these kind of films is,
and so on. There are only two reliable regularities: when
the plural kinds is used, the demonstrative and the verb must
also be plural: These (not this) kinds
of films are (not is) popular. By the
same token, when both kind and the noun
following it are singular, the verb must be singular: This
kind of film is (not are) popular. To this
may be added a word of caution to American writers: despite the
existence of ample literary precedent for these kind of films,
the construction has been so thoroughly stigmatized by native
grammarians that its use would have to be reckoned indiscreet, if
not strictly incorrect.
Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the
English Language, Third Edition Copyright 1992
不知为何，我常常想起这句古训：“防民之口，甚于防川。川雍而溃，伤人必多”
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Some more reputable precedent found
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/02/21 11:55:58
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1)It was the worst of these kind of connections,--there was no calculating the consequences; they were never-ending(Ruth
by ELIZABETH C. GASKELL)
2)"Is it KETCHING? Why, how you talk. Is a HARROW catching
-- in the dark? If you don't hitch on to one tooth, you're bound to on another, ain't you? And you can't get away with that tooth without fetching the whole harrow along, can you? Well, these kind of mumps is a kind of a harrow, as you may say -- and it ain't no slouch of a harrow, nuther, you come to get it hitched on good." (The Adventure of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain)
3)Most of this kind of disasters to traders and trappers arise from some careless inattention to the state of their arms and ammunition, the placing of their horses at night, the position of their camping ground, and the posting of their night watches(The Adventurres of Captain Bonneville by Washington Irving)
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Meunique
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Re: your "precedent" 2:
作者：Leroi - 2000/02/21 14:00:42
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Who was talking - Huck Finn, or Mark Twain, or Samuel Clemens?
The point is, they all talked differently!
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Here is a chicken and egg question I like to ask linguists or linguistic historians.
作者：ds - 2000/02/21 13:30:12
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Does usage come first, then grammar follows; or is it the other
way around?
Did people set up rules according to how the language had already
been used in a certain way for a long time or rather,after the language
had been used in a long time, grammarians set the rules and
changed (or forced a change) in the way language was used ?
Many grammatical rules are "common sense" rules
that make communication clearer and less ambiguous (such as subject
antecedent agreement; tense in verbs to signify the correct
time sense of the statement etc..). These rules are probably
born out of usage, but what about the more elaborated and subtle
rules ? Were they put in later and language usage are changed to accomodate
these rules ?
Like Last Hermit pointed out, many great writers blalantly disregard
grammatic rules. Sometimes their way of writing set a new style
and/or trend. Will grammatic rules be modified as a result of the
new usage ? (May be that's why we have so many exceptions
in English Grammar :=) )
Just a thought
ds
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Continue (I left out a paragraph)...
作者：ds - 2000/02/21 13:44:38
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If usage comes first, and rules are set up after the fact, then
grammar should be dynamic, not static. As usage evolves,
grammatical rules should also evolve in accordance with usage.
ds
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A word of advice
作者：Leroi - 2000/02/21 13:50:20
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to learners of English as a second language:
There is such a thing as style: a matter of choosing the appropriate level of discourse depending on who(m) you're talking to or writing for. Your teachers are right when they choose to teach you "formal" English because, after all, they cannot teach you everything.
English, like any living language, is bound to have varieties, over which even native speakers sometimes quarrel among themsleves. Well, let them do the quarrelling! As for us non-native learners, we do well to profit from the results.
My advice then is this: Strive to acquire a style of English, whether written or spoken, that will be acceptable to educated native speakers and respected by the not-so-educated among them.
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Can't agree more, thanks, Leroi! 联想起咱们的汉语...
作者：野草 - 2000/02/21 15:17:47
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究竟哪个对？考考我们这些说地道汉语的人，当然包括我自己：
- 有好多菜，你就吃多一点！ / 有好多菜，你就多吃一点！
- 我差点没噎死！ / 我差点噎死！
- 他住哪里，我知不道。 / 他住哪里，我不知道。
- 故步自封 / 固步自封
- 通过大量阅读，使我明白了语言学的奥妙。/ 通过大量阅读，我明白了语言学的奥妙。
- 老爷爷，您老人家几岁啦？ / 老爷爷，您老人家多大岁数啦？
- 尿尿(niao4) / 尿尿(sui1)
- 这世道简直每况愈下 / 这世道简直每下愈况
......
============
上着班，放肆的联想该暂时打住，不知各位见题有何感想，甚至还可出更多的题？：))
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有意思！按“受过教育”的语法标准试答:-)
作者：hz - 2000/02/21 18:52:43
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大体说，全是第二个对吧？
- 有好多菜，你就吃多一点！ / 有好多菜，你就多吃一点！(但听过一些说地方话的人用前一种)
- 我差点没噎死！ / 我差点噎死！(前者太常听到了，谁也不以为错了)
- 他住哪里，我知不道。 / 他住哪里，我不知道。(前者也有人说，是方言表达？有时开玩笑也说)
- 故步自封 / 固步自封 (我觉得意思是前者对，看字形呢，后者又挺顺，查“现代汉语词典”说两者皆可，不知最初怎样)
- 通过大量阅读，使我明白了语言学的奥妙。/ 通过大量阅读，我明白了语言学的奥妙。(或说“大量
阅读使我。。。”。可话说回来，人们也包括我自己还是常常要回到那个错误的表达方式上去，似乎又
有一层语法之外的思维道理，即说话时其实同时感到“通过”和“使动”两层含义，而这两层含义语法
上却又不兼容，我猜测这是这个语法错误久纠不正的原因。)
- 老爷爷，您老人家几岁啦？ / 老爷爷，您老人家多大岁数啦？(老人家八九岁:-)
- 尿尿(niao4) / 尿尿(sui1) (前者用得也很普遍)
- 这世道简直每况愈下 / 这世道简直每下愈况 (前者以讹传讹，已成正统了。)
我想到的另两个例子是“难免”和“非”。
- 难免出差错 (人们常说成“难免不出差错”，有点象美国人说“I tell ya, don't say nothing!”)
- 非去不可 (“不可”常被人省略了)
谢谢！
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上语文课来了
作者：xy - 2000/02/22 02:42:40
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假设我要教老外学中文，我就选打括号的，括号是我加上的。
- 有好多菜，你就吃多一点！ / （有好多菜，你就多吃一点！）
-（ 我差点没噎死！ / 我差点噎死！）
- 他住哪里，我知不道。 /（ 他住哪里，我不知道。）
- 故步自封 / （固步自封）
-（ 通过大量阅读，使我明白了语言学的奥妙。/ 通过大量阅读，我明白了语言学的奥妙。〕从这句又悟出一点，其实翻译时，不必总把那个“使”字译出来。
- 老爷爷，您老人家几岁啦？ /（ 老爷爷，您老人家多大岁数啦？）第一句是南方人的讲法。咱们还是教人家普通话吧。
-（ 尿尿(niao4)） / 尿尿(sui1) 教外国儿童可以，教成人，可以再雅一点:-)
-（ 这世道简直每况愈下） / 这世道简直每下愈况 最好能让老外学了这句没处使。
还加一句：好容易找到这儿，还关门了！/好不容易找到这儿，还关门了！
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知不道我听山东人说过,几岁，我听上海人说过
作者(Author)：藏心亭主 - 2004/04/01 03:15:15
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如题.
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对！我之所以贴这些问题上来，并不是要解决语法问题－－而且也轮不到我。而是要各位解放思想……
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/02/21 21:16:40
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因为，我们尤其是国内的，所学的英文太正统了，好象个个都要做观世音菩萨似的。不知道各位有无发现，中央电视台在播国产电视剧时所打的字幕，竟少有用所谓informal words（在此澄清一下：我楼上所讲的informal English，还包括大量在词典里注明informal的词语)的－－明明是农村生活的电视剧，打出来的字幕却还是用正儿八经的英文（对不起，一时想不起实例）。
当然，我们也不能囫囵吞枣，以为反正都可以用，便不分场合地使用。这恐怕不用我在此饶舌了。
谢各位讨论。
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Meunique
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Be it formal or informal, I'm grateful as always 'cause I learned a lot from your posts.
作者：hz - 2000/02/21 21:29:53
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I agree with HZ's comment. Your postings
作者：xy - 2000/02/22 02:50:23
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are very stimulating, setting my idle mind working. Thank you.
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哈哈哈！鹤子之美我者，私我也；新野之美我者畏我者耶？
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/02/22 06:04:16
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对不起，这两天忙于备“课”，无暇对楼下您对翻译的高论发表意见，这里先行谢过您的美辞！并借此向楼上贤妹致谢！
不过，您在这方面实不应视我为师！如果真要师我，在打字方面恐怕尚可，如果不脸红说一句，简直绰绰有余。甚至乎，可以在本坛高悬“Second to none”棋号！
至于在国学和西学方面，能叨陪已算很好了。
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Meunique
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待我查查那段古文的出处才能回答您，
作者：xy - 2000/02/22 06:48:31
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这水平一下就露馅儿了吧？
您没看我那麽积极举手回答您的问题吗？那是表示对您的为人民服务精神的敬意的一种方式，您那些帖子确实让我明白了不少。我是采用的开卷答题的方式，看似简单的题，还真得查书查字典的呢！谢谢您！听说过大隐小隐隐于野隐于市什么的，还没听说过隐于坛的，而且这麽积极活跃地隐着。
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哈哈哈哈哈！笑得人直不起腰来，亏您想得出！谦虚得如此绝妙！
作者：hz - 2000/02/22 09:06:06
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虽然比得不确:-)，而且he zi的议论是出以公心，实话实说，但公心之外又存一份“海内诤友，天涯比
邻”的情谊倒是真的。您对这份情谊的了解，实在使我觉得安慰和感动。
For XY: 我想我的隐士贤弟和我一样，都是在中学语文课上念过“战国策”里“邹忌修八尺有余”(或说
“邹忌讽齐王纳谏”)那段短文的，可能您上学时不同。So, don't have to feel bad about not knowing well its original
text, really. 不过贤弟将它拈来就用，妙思过人，倒是愚姐所不能及:-)))
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哈哈！我还担心您对号入座呢？愚兄小人，贤妹君子！
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/02/22 11:11:52
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Meunique
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既然担心，当然就是君子了:-)
作者：hz - 2000/02/22 11:21:47
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哈哈哈哈......迟来的笑
作者：xy - 2000/02/23 02:06:32
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好你个隐士！回家按鹤子的提示在古文观止中找到了那篇。笑死我，可没敢告诉家人，怕会买上机票找你算账。就算舍不得机票，也得盘问我两天两夜。因为您这帖子，还翻了一下古文观止，多谢了！日前，您拜方君为师，方君说他看古文观止和张培基，赶紧将还是在上大学时买的古文观止找出来，准备一读。第一篇就因您而读了邹忌讽齐王纳谏。
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您叫他（们）放心吧。邹忌修长八尺有余，我方五尺！省了这机票吧。您忘了我手机号码？5414！
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/02/23 03:27:22
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Meunique
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“正统”之外是要放开，由隐士所提想到的
作者：北美 - 2000/02/22 07:34:27
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我也是学Queen's English出身。在一定的场合讲语法纯正的英语和写paper时感觉尚好，也是立身之本，但麻烦也很多。口语上的不同处只有在现实生活中一点点适应。看电影电视甚至阅读时都能感觉得到。
gonna 代替 am going to 一类的话司空见惯，就不必提了，另举两个例子，说明语言在发展中，为人接受的东西就成了“约定俗成”：
一个电影商拒绝一个作家的手稿时说：
“You asked me why? 'Cause you've lost your edge."
根据上下文，我想"edge" here means something as "sharpness".
另一部电影一开始就是导演指责演员：“You've lost focus."
一篇影评说一部床上镜头多，脱衣多的电影为“very edgy". Meaning it went too far as to...
读Alice Walker 的获奖小说 Color Purple 在几年前于我还是十分不情愿的事。也就是最近两年才看了下去，看进去了又觉得特别好。给朋友推荐，得到的回答是，“I arn't good at informal English."
不过话说回来，还是希望语言的纯洁成分多一些。
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七、准并列（From A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language)
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/02/22 09:33:52
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七、准并列
主语名词短语可以用准并列连词（quasi-coordinators）来连接，即在语义上类似并列连词的介词（例如along with, rather than和as well as）。根据语法一致的原则，如果第一个名词短语是单数，则要求用单数动词：
1）The captain, as well as the other players, was tired.
2）One speaker after another was complaining about the lack of adequate sanitation.
偶尔，概念一致的原则（有时兼有接近原则）促使我们采用复数动词，尤其是在表达不严密的口语中：
3）One man with his wife, both looking very anxious, were pleading with a guard to let them through.
4）The President, together with his advisors, are preparing a statement on the crisis.
如果由and同第一个名词短语相连接的第二个名词短语带有状语，我们把这种结构看作是插入成分。同样地，根据语法一致的原则，要求动词与第一个名词短语的数相一致：
5）A writer, and sometimes an artist, is invited to address the society.
6）The ambassador--and perhaps his wife too--is likely to be present.
当第二个名词短语表示否定时（不论有没有and），同样适用上述语法规则。不过在这种情况下，由于概念一致的原则，更有理由使用单数动词：
7）The Prime Minister, (and) not the monarch, decides government policy.
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Meunique
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neither...nor...
作者：Last Hermit - 2000/02/22 10:39:49
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八、neither...nor..
否定关联连词neither...nor的用法规则，在正式用法中与either...or一样。在不太正式的用法中，否定关联连词在考虑一致问题时更多是作为and来处理。因为，在说话中例1）比例2）更为自然：
1）Neither he nor his wife have arrived.
2）Neither he nor his wife has arrived.
这也许与neither作为一个限定词或代词常和复数动词一起连用有关。但是，这种情况也可能是概念一致的反映，因为在逻辑上“neither X nor Y”可以解释为两个否定的结合：“both(not-X) and (not-Y)”。
如果动词选用单数或选用复数都感到很不自然，那么说话人可以通过把第二个名词短语放到后面，或者有时可以通过用情态动词代替的办法来避免作出选择：
3）Either your brakes are at fault or your eyesight is.
（比较：Either your brakes or your eyesight is at fault.)
4）He hasn't arrived, nor has his wife.
5）Either your brakes or your eyesight may be at fault.
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Meunique
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I came, I saw, I learned, I appreciate.
作者：hz - 2000/02/22 11:04:31
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